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jonathan blow is a universally acclaimed

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video game designer and programmer who's

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best known as the creator of the video

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games braid and the witness jonathan is

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distinguished as a game designer in that

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he doesn't think video games should be

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considered escapism or shouldn't be

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designed to be escapes but rather they

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should be experiences to advise you in

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your everyday life in the same way that

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superlative literature does we touch on

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what creativity means free will physics

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at least with regard to wolfram's model

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and what consciousness has to do with

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video games and art in general click on

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the timestamp in the description if

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you'd like to skip this intro for those

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new to this channel my name is kurt

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jaimungal i'm a filmmaker with a

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background in mathematical physics

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dedicated to the exploitation of what

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are called theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as delineating the possible

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connection consciousness has to the

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fundamental laws of nature provided

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these laws exist at all and are even

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knowable to us if you enjoy witnessing

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and engaging in conversation on the

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topics of psychology physics

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consciousness and so on then check the

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description for an invitation to the

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discord and the theories of everything

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subreddit there's also a link to the

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patreon that is patreon.com

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c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

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kercher mongol if you'd like to support

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this podcast as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reason i'm able to

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do this full-time it would be near

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impossible at least for me to have

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conversations on loop quantum gravity

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non-dualism consciousness even geometric

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unity with any sort of fidelity if not

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for your support thank you and that link

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again is patreon.com

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kurtjmungle with regard to sponsors

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there are two algo is an end-to-end

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supply chain optimization software

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company with software that helps

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business users optimize sales and

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operations planning to avoid stockouts

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reduce returns and inventory write-downs

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while reducing inventory investment it's

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a supply chain ai that drives smart roi

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headed by a bright individual by the

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name of amjad hussein who's been a huge

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supporter of this podcast since near its

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inception the second sponsor is

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brilliant brilliant illuminates the soul

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of mathematics science and engineering

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through bite-sized interactive learning

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experiences that explore the laws that

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shape our world it elevates math and

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discovery you can even learn group

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theory which is what's being referenced

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when people say that the standard model

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is based upon u1 cross su-2 cross s23

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those are technically called lead groups

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visit brilliant.org

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tow t-o-e for free and get 20 off the

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annual subscription i recommend that you

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ease at which you can now comprehend

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subjects that you previously had

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difficulty grocking thank you and enjoy

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this conversation with the world

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renowned jonathan blow before conducting

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the podcast i was asking jonathan about

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why he accepted this interview given

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that he's requested to be on many

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channels and says no to the majority of

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them

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um

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i think these days it's down to like

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what do i feel like is the motivation of

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the person

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doing the interview right like if it's

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somebody who

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you know just wants clicks or i mean

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it's worse actually to to tangent a

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little bit

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um i've had really bad experiences like

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at live physical conferences because

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those like i prepare a different speech

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to do every time i put

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a lot of last minute work into doing

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this thing and then i go have the

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interaction with the person running the

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conference and i realize oh

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this person just wants me here to like

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get some audience and doesn't really

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care about anything that i have you know

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and and those um

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that

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has it's just gotten me to be more to

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conserve my energy more i guess and try

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to use it in in cases where um

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where i feel like somebody just wants to

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legitimately have a conversation right

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as opposed to like you know whatever and

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so there's all sorts of emails that i

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get that i don't

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um

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i don't even reply to

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you know

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ranging from

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do you want to

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speak i mean these days it's usually

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online conferences right do you want to

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speak at our online conference to like

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i'm in high school and my teacher wants

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us to interview people right and it's

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like those are sweet

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there i mean maybe but also maybe not

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like because maybe it's just oh i just

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picked someone i don't know it could be

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a rule or that they're not genuinely

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interested in you

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yeah

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um

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it's hard to know like it's also just

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hard to know um

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but

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i do also there's one thing going on

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like i generally

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only want to

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do talks when i really have something to

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say

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which is interesting to see how this is

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gonna go because it's not like i have a

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particular idea

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uh

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for what

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what i want to get across right it's

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totally open conversation but um

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like i've just i've seen a lot of people

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this is a kind of an indus industry lens

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on things or something okay but you see

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people and

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they seem like smart people in a certain

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field

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but then you watch them for years or

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they're the people around you and

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they're just talking and talking and it

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eventually turns out

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they were like playing this talking game

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as opposed to

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like really being the people invested in

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like wanting to know and wanting to work

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hard and do the thing and so

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um i always i have this secondary reflex

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to like check that tendency in myself

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like hey

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is it really better

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if you maybe don't talk so much right

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now and just go

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um

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just go work on something and what do

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you mean when you say they're playing

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the talking game that they want to be a

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guru or a pundit of some sort more than

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they care about the message they're

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delivering they want to be someone who's

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seen as a message delivery yeah i mean i

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think that's a very fundamental human

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motivation right

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or or i mean not fundamental to

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everybody let's say common it's a

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it's a common thing that people do

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um

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either to get ahead societally or

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to just feel to themselves like they're

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succeeding right like we all sort of

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especially these days

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um in the us there's not a lot of like

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social prescription

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for

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how to

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who you're supposed to be right like the

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at least the culture that i grew up in

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um was just sort of like here you go go

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figure it out right go figure out what

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you're doing and

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um

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there's this thing that happens where

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people figure out their own angle on

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some particular thing and they think

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that they're

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it maybe looks like two people are doing

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the same thing so if i do video game

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stuff and i go to a conference and

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here's a guy giving a speech about

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something and here's another guy giving

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a speech about something and

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one of them may be doing this

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in order to be a pundit right

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and

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think but but he doesn't realize that's

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what he's doing right because he he just

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thinks he's being smart about the the

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topic and whatever but

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his way of figuring out

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how to orient in the world just

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somehow

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has more of this

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more of the pundit

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in pundit ingredient and less of the

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actual fascination with the fundamental

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material ingredient and it can be hard

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to tell those things apart and sometimes

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it takes time but then you see the

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trajectory of

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what happens over time and it it sort of

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it separates these things out right

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i don't know

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you know i've been following you for

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when i say following you i've known

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about you and have been a fan of you

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for

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more than 10 years

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all right i don't remember exactly what

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it was but you influenced me so i'm a

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filmmaker i always say i'm a filmmaker

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first more than i'm a podcaster or a

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or someone who dabbles in math and

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physics and so on i'm a filmmaker i'm

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more of a formal artist and what i mean

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by that is i i play with the form

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of art

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i'm interested in

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games that let's say

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they only consist of endings

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or

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sure yeah braid was a great example

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braid i love the ending particularly the

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last part of braid where not to spoil it

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spoiler alert where

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you reverse the direction of time and

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you see that you thought that you were

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saving this person but you were the

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villain from her perspective my films

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basically i try to play with the formal

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aspect and i realized as i was

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performing some introspection that

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plenty of that is owed to you

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that's always nice to hear you know i

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mean it

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what i do is hard it takes a lot of work

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right

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somehow i ended up in this medium

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that probably takes more work than any

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other medium like per thing produced at

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least the way that i do it

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um

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so

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uh it's really nice to hear that these

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things have an impact

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in one way or another you know

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yeah

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do you have a video game philosophy

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and if so can you just give the overview

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i am

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i'm not sure that i think about it

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exactly that way i mean i i think that i

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could give a good answer to that

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question

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if we go into it by more specific parts

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you know because what what i have is

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something that

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i've put together over

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00:10:05,430 --> 00:10:03,600
decades as a result of a few different

286
00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:05,440
things right one is like

287
00:10:09,430 --> 00:10:07,200
how did i get into this

288
00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:09,440
it seems on the one hand it seems really

289
00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:10,880
natural that i ended up where i am but

290
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:13,120
on the other hand it seems really weird

291
00:10:15,430 --> 00:10:14,079
um

292
00:10:17,829 --> 00:10:15,440
and so

293
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:17,839
like whatever my motivations were

294
00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:19,440
originally

295
00:10:23,509 --> 00:10:21,200
gave me a certain

296
00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:23,519
angle on things right

297
00:10:31,829 --> 00:10:30,150
okay how about this you said in one of

298
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:31,839
the interviews i believe it's a recent

299
00:10:35,110 --> 00:10:33,600
one a few months ago that one of your

300
00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:35,120
goals in life is to understand the

301
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:37,680
universe maybe that's your dominant goal

302
00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:38,959
so firstly what does it mean to

303
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:49,190
yeah you know i'm not actually

304
00:10:52,069 --> 00:10:51,190
this is a difficult question right i

305
00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:52,079
mean

306
00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:54,000
so so

307
00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:55,600
yeah

308
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,519
no i mean what i would say in response

309
00:11:03,430 --> 00:10:59,279
to that question is

310
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:03,440
um that was very very definitely

311
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,630
a strong guiding motivator or maybe the

312
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:10,560
only motivator when i was young before i

313
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:12,560
was actually officially in games like

314
00:11:21,269 --> 00:11:13,440
when

315
00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:23,350
but i even then i knew it was a hard

316
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:25,200
question and i knew that any answer that

317
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:26,480
i

318
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:37,680
myself up for a very very very hard

319
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:38,560
thing

320
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:46,790
i sort of got into doing game stuff

321
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,000
almost

322
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:50,959
as a temporary reprieve from that as

323
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:51,760
like

324
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:02,069
i'm ins there was a time in life when i

325
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:10,550
uh to approach this problem without

326
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:13,600
being completely destroyed therefore

327
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:16,240
my job is actually

328
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,200
um

329
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:19,040
to go away for a little bit and get

330
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:20,399
stronger

331
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,360
and

332
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:22,800
later

333
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:24,800
i'll know something better about how to

334
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:27,279
approach this right when you say this

335
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,720
you mean the problem of understanding

336
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:30,320
the universe

337
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:31,360
and what do you mean that you'll be

338
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:33,200
destroying yes and also how old were you

339
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:34,959
when you had that thought so first so

340
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:36,160
two questions how old were you when you

341
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:37,200
had a thought what do you mean by you'll

342
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:39,200
be destroyed by yourself this was uh you

343
00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:40,959
know around sometime when i was in

344
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:43,360
college so i was probably

345
00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:45,839
i was probably like 20 years old or

346
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,600
something like that

347
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:49,519
um 19 maybe

348
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,069
and i would say that that part of my

349
00:12:59,110 --> 00:12:58,240
personality at this time

350
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:59,120
was

351
00:13:02,870 --> 00:13:00,480
so

352
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:02,880
you know i knew looking around hey we

353
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:05,120
have a world full of

354
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:07,680
people who also kind of claim to want to

355
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:17,509
but also seem to

356
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:18,829
seem to be

357
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:22,079
satisfied by

358
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:23,920
obviously

359
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:26,320
insufficient answers right

360
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,440
um

361
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:29,519
and

362
00:13:33,269 --> 00:13:30,320
well

363
00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:33,279
part of my personality was

364
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:35,440
no we're not going to take insufficient

365
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:37,360
answers right we're going to look at

366
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:38,240
things

367
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:39,680
and

368
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:41,760
go all the way to the root of them like

369
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:43,920
what happens if you play this out if you

370
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:45,920
play this belief out to the end right or

371
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:48,240
if you play this idea of how things are

372
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,720
supposed to work out to the end and

373
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,839
i would say i was a little bit

374
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:53,760
overzealous in that because i was a

375
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:55,120
little too young to do that kind of

376
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:02,870
one thing i got very good at is

377
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:05,199
which was probably largely true

378
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,320
um

379
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:08,399
was just playing an idea out and saying

380
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,279
okay

381
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:11,360
this thing if you really look at it

382
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:13,199
already maps to this other thing which i

383
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:14,880
already decided is meaningless and so

384
00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:17,040
this is meaningless too right and so you

385
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:19,600
can look at everything

386
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,399
and

387
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:22,000
see that there's nothing there for you

388
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:24,880
if what you really want is some kind of

389
00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:26,079
you know

390
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:27,920
deep truth

391
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:29,279
that

392
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:41,509
it is

393
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,880
realize that they do not

394
00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:48,639
that they are not

395
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:50,000
representative of that truth or

396
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:51,360
answering let's give some examples

397
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,480
because right now it's extremely

398
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,639
abstract i don't i mean the problem is

399
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,160
it's going to be hard for me to give you

400
00:14:59,910 --> 00:14:58,079
accurate examples because this is 30

401
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:59,920
years ago right and so

402
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,839
i don't exactly remember the exact

403
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:03,760
thought process that i had this process

404
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:05,600
that i had it's more

405
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:07,519
i remember these

406
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:09,680
i remember what it felt like to be there

407
00:15:20,790 --> 00:15:17,670
you know i can look at any concept

408
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:20,800
and very rapidly

409
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:23,600
understand that it has nothing for me

410
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:26,320
and so i'm just in this void where

411
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:29,199
there's nothing for me anywhere

412
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:30,880
right

413
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:33,839
have you gotten over that

414
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:36,000
not a hundred percent

415
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:36,800
but

416
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:46,710
just to take a break and get

417
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:48,959
stronger and smarter and

418
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:53,199
develop somehow develop a view

419
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:56,160
that would enable me to

420
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:57,920
just be in a better position to ask some

421
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,240
of these questions right

422
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:02,160
um

423
00:16:06,829 --> 00:16:04,880
okay so you're around 20 21 22.

424
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:06,839
something like that you

425
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:09,600
had aspirations of answering some of the

426
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:12,000
largest questions that there are and you

427
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:14,160
realized you couldn't do so

428
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,759
or the answers that were provided to you

429
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,120
were

430
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,959
you didn't find admissible it's not like

431
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:21,279
i wanted to publicly answer something or

432
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:22,399
like you know

433
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:24,000
win the nobel prize for answering

434
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:26,160
something it was it was just a very deep

435
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:27,519
interior

436
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:28,639
drive

437
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:47,829
like saying saying wanting to know is

438
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:49,440
not even right because it wasn't about

439
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:52,000
knowing it was about

440
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:57,189
like i'm here in the world

441
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:59,519
as a human being and like what should i

442
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:00,480
be

443
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,199
doing or what where should my attention

444
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:06,480
be going or like what is the you know

445
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:08,000
what is the point of doing anything

446
00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:10,160
obviously i want the things that i do

447
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:11,439
to be

448
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:12,720
uh

449
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:15,679
in concordance with

450
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:18,720
something right or

451
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:20,000
it's just it's very difficult to

452
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,199
verbalize because it's very deep desire

453
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,439
that i had at that age this sounds more

454
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:27,760
about direction in life rather than well

455
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:29,919
what is the origin of the universe what

456
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:31,679
are the fundamental laws of physics and

457
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:34,320
so on am i correct or is that

458
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:41,990
i mean they're sort of the same thing

459
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:43,919
right for somebody who feels this way

460
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:49,669
all right let's explore that how are

461
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,480
these

462
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:52,559
similar

463
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:53,840
for the

464
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:55,520
average person listening i imagine they

465
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:57,360
would think okay well the origin of life

466
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:59,200
or the origin of the universe or the

467
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:00,880
direction of time let's say the large

468
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:02,080
mysteries

469
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:05,039
that we have those seem unrelated to

470
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,200
what should i do with my life

471
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,160
so how are those two related well

472
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:12,320
what should you do with your life

473
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:13,520
right

474
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:14,400
um

475
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:20,789
so again you know as i mentioned i was i

476
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:22,720
was raised in

477
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:23,919
this

478
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,200
social

479
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:27,039
situation where it's like well you you

480
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:29,120
figure out the answer to that yourself

481
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:30,160
right

482
00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:31,440
um

483
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:34,160
and so what

484
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,760
what is my answer to that is it going to

485
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,440
be a high quality answer or is it going

486
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:39,520
to be a low quality answer am i just

487
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:41,200
going to do whatever

488
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:43,919
right um there are some very obvious

489
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:44,799
things

490
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:47,440
even as a kid i knew i didn't want to do

491
00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:49,840
so like do i want to go put on a suit

492
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:52,240
and work at a company

493
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:54,960
every day and like make money

494
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:58,000
and then feel accomplished because

495
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,360
i

496
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:00,960
have a

497
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:03,360
big title and a lot of money or whatever

498
00:19:06,150 --> 00:19:05,280
and very clearly the answer to that was

499
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:06,160
no

500
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:07,039
right

501
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:11,280
and so it's like well what is what is a

502
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,799
high quality answer what is a good

503
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,160
answer and

504
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:16,240
um

505
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,039
i just had this this feeling

506
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:21,360
that i needed to pursue

507
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:27,430
actually true regardless of how far away

508
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:30,080
it is or how difficult that was

509
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,480
right and by actually true in this sense

510
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:34,000
i mean

511
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,430
well i don't know right right um that's

512
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,919
like part of what makes it hard

513
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:47,600
if you could if you could nail it down

514
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,240
very specifically like oh it's it's

515
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:53,120
purple and it's like you know three feet

516
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:55,039
long and two feet high

517
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:56,080
um

518
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:57,520
then maybe that's not that hard of a

519
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,480
problem

520
00:20:01,990 --> 00:20:00,400
right yeah it's almost it's like a meta

521
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,000
truth problem some people say i want to

522
00:20:05,909 --> 00:20:04,000
know the set of true statements the set

523
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:05,919
of answers but then you also want to

524
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:07,919
know well what does it mean to be true

525
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,440
does it mean true in an objective sense

526
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,280
so you can measure it and then you can

527
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:13,679
falsify it and yeah repeat it

528
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,310
there are places where language can

529
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:22,000
actually start to confuse things right

530
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:24,080
because we use the same word to mean

531
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:27,440
different things and often those things

532
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:31,440
have some semblance to each other right

533
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,200
um

534
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,280
like when you say you know what is the

535
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:37,360
set of true statements or whatever i'm

536
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:39,200
like okay

537
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:41,600
i i could imagine wanting to know that

538
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,400
but

539
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:44,000
that doesn't necessarily bear much

540
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:46,960
relation to what i was feeling at this

541
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:49,200
young age it was more like

542
00:21:02,549 --> 00:20:56,870
like if you imagine

543
00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,070
uh

544
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:08,950
like you had to make one choice and like

545
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,960
dedicate your life in some direction and

546
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:13,520
then you were gonna go that way

547
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:15,120
like that choice is final and you're

548
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:16,240
going to go that way so it's a very

549
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:17,600
important choice it's not really the way

550
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,080
life is usually but just imagine that

551
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:22,320
right

552
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,430
most

553
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:29,280
important thing that you could dedicate

554
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,750
that's what i was feeling

555
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:35,440
right

556
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:38,799
um so that's and to me like i associated

557
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:42,080
that with the idea of truth in some way

558
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:43,200
um

559
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:48,470
that doesn't necessarily have that much

560
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:50,080
to do with like the

561
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:52,159
the set of true statements where true

562
00:21:57,190 --> 00:21:54,400
statement is defined as like

563
00:21:59,029 --> 00:21:57,200
satisfies some kind of boolean algebra

564
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:59,039
you know when you substitute the things

565
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:00,400
or whatever

566
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:02,720
it's just a very it's different

567
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,600
um

568
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,520
although i do think it's not completely

569
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,360
separate like the the reason we call

570
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:08,880
this other thing

571
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:11,600
truth is because

572
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,720
there is a relation right right right

573
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,480
it's just hard to pin down

574
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:18,960
what made you go into video games

575
00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:22,000
i you know i was just very fascinated by

576
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:26,549
um

577
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,600
even

578
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,360
it it's weird because these things

579
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:32,159
happened one step at a time and they're

580
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,760
again they're obvious in retrospect i

581
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,520
think also technology has been

582
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,640
developing a lot right and so from today

583
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:40,320
things look obvious that didn't look

584
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,559
obvious to me at the time so

585
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:44,559
when i was even like

586
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:47,679
seven years old or something i really

587
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:50,799
liked playing arcade games you know like

588
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:52,640
from the late 70s early 80s that you

589
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:54,480
would

590
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:58,799
them

591
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:00,799
like in

592
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:02,720
the corner store or whatever they would

593
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:04,159
have a couple

594
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,760
arcade games and i really liked playing

595
00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:07,760
those and then um

596
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,159
when i got into the sixth grade so then

597
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,480
i was about ten they happened to have a

598
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:14,559
computer class at the school where i was

599
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:20,390
i was probably a little bit lucky like i

600
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:21,520
don't know if every school had that at

601
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:23,120
that time

602
00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:24,640
and um

603
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,679
but i i mean i guess i signed up for it

604
00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:29,520
but but from the first day of that class

605
00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:31,760
i was just really excited and really

606
00:23:33,909 --> 00:23:33,039
hyped right

607
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,919
um

608
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,159
i just like loved being in that class

609
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:37,840
and doing the stuff

610
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,110
and it wasn't like i had this memory of

611
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:45,360
or i have this memory of um

612
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:48,240
i went back like in fifth grade

613
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:49,760
it was it was like going from elementary

614
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:51,120
school to middle school and at one point

615
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:52,559
i went back to visit my elementary

616
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:54,000
school and i talked to my math teacher

617
00:23:57,669 --> 00:23:55,440
who was sort of my favorite teacher

618
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:57,679
there and i was like oh man you got to

619
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,440
check it out they have these computers

620
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,880
and you can like do all this stuff and

621
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,400
to me that was like

622
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:04,480
the thing that was exciting about math

623
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:05,919
but more so

624
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,760
but from talking to the teacher i

625
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:09,600
remember even at that age i was like

626
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:10,880
reading him

627
00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:12,720
socially and i was like wait

628
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:14,880
he's not as excited about this as i am

629
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,440
he doesn't like understand why this

630
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:19,600
has the stuff of math but better he's

631
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:22,240
just like oh you know that's cool

632
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:23,039
so

633
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,039
i realized even then that not everybody

634
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,559
was into this

635
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:28,480
um but one of the first things i did in

636
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:30,320
that class was make a

637
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:31,200
very

638
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:34,000
stupid video game um it was actually it

639
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:35,360
was almost like a slot machine or

640
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:37,039
something where

641
00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:38,320
you know it was written in the basic

642
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:40,159
programming language which is what these

643
00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:42,080
were commodore vic-20 computers from the

644
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:44,480
1980s so you would turn them on you

645
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,159
could program them right away you didn't

646
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,240
need to like run things to program them

647
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:49,919
which was one of the things that made

648
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:51,440
personal computers of that time very

649
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:52,480
accessible

650
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:53,520
and

651
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:59,269
you know i'm i didn't have ideas about

652
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:00,559
what to make

653
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,080
but

654
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:03,679
i i knew that i could make something

655
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:05,679
simple and so it was a thing that like

656
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:07,919
counted a number up from like

657
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:10,000
1 to 100 and then started over and it

658
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:11,520
would say you know

659
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:14,000
stop the counter at like 37 it would

660
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:15,440
pick a different number every time and

661
00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:17,679
you had to like try to hit it right so

662
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,039
that's what i was doing when i was 10

663
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,390
now how did video games this let's say

664
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:26,880
aside when you were 20 21 you called it

665
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:29,360
a reprieve how did it aid your

666
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:35,190
so this is something that i've

667
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:38,080
this understanding of

668
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:39,520
this answer that i'm about to give is

669
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:41,279
something that i built up in retrospect

670
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:42,799
so it's not it's not exactly something

671
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:52,390
the the fascinating thing about games is

672
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,470
about video games specifically right and

673
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:56,559
so i'm not actually that into other

674
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:59,200
kinds of games like i'm not super into

675
00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:00,960
board games or card games or whatever

676
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:02,720
which other people are um the thing

677
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:04,880
about a video game is

678
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:07,440
um you know it's running on a computer

679
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:10,960
at a relatively interactive rate and

680
00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:12,480
even if it's whether it's it could be

681
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:14,880
running slow like a turn-based game or

682
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:16,400
you're marching a guy around a board or

683
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,480
it could be running fast like one of

684
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,400
these action games where you run around

685
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:22,720
all over the place right but either

686
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:25,039
case what is happening is

687
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,720
there is a recurrence

688
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:28,720
of

689
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:30,000
a certain

690
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:32,400
series of steps and the steps are

691
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:34,880
we read the input from whoever's playing

692
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:36,960
right or across the network or whatever

693
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,159
right we do some simulation which is we

694
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,080
have some state of the

695
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:44,640
of the objects in the world of our game

696
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:46,880
and based on the input plus whatever

697
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:48,640
those objects were doing which is like

698
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,039
the simplified laws of physics of that

699
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:53,039
game we go from the state of the world

700
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:55,120
at time zero to the state of the world

701
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:57,600
at time one right and then and then the

702
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,559
third part is we output that to a screen

703
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,960
and the speaker or something and then we

704
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:05,039
go back and do that over again right and

705
00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:07,440
so

706
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:09,360
to

707
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:13,440
uh

708
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:14,320
i mean

709
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:15,919
so there are different kinds of games

710
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,440
that

711
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:19,039
more or less

712
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:20,720
conform to what i'm about to say but at

713
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,360
least for certain kinds of games

714
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:25,600
to make them you're essentially

715
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:28,000
designing a smaller simpler universe

716
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:29,440
than the one

717
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:31,919
that we currently inhabit right

718
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:37,269
that lets you

719
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:38,880
maybe understand some things in a

720
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,960
certain way that that other people don't

721
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,200
have a lens on right so you know in math

722
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:44,640
or physics or something if you have a

723
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:46,000
really hard problem that you don't

724
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,840
understand maybe you look at a

725
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,520
simplified idealized version of the

726
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,120
problem and

727
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,440
you see something about it right

728
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:54,799
um and so

729
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:56,960
that's part of what's fascinating to me

730
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,799
about games there's actually

731
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:00,640
a few

732
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,000
part of what i've been doing over my

733
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:04,159
career is find these different things

734
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:05,600
that i think are interesting and like

735
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:08,080
put them together into one thing but

736
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:11,760
that's one of them for sure and so

737
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,559
the thing is um

738
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:16,399
if i want to write some fiction for

739
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:19,200
example and i want to say

740
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:22,000
there's a world and

741
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:22,960
it works

742
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,640
there's like magic or something and the

743
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:26,640
magic works a certain way

744
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:27,520
right

745
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:29,200
you can just say that

746
00:28:34,389 --> 00:28:31,760
and if you're rhetorically convincing

747
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:34,399
then people will like your fiction right

748
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:35,279
but

749
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:37,279
the thing that you said about how the

750
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:40,720
things in that world work

751
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:42,240
doesn't really have to hold together

752
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:45,279
beyond some very cursory level of

753
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,120
inspection you just you just have to you

754
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:49,279
know especially these days people don't

755
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:50,720
think that much about what they see or

756
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:53,120
read in in the older days it used to be

757
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:54,799
a little more um

758
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:56,320
but you just have to pass that level of

759
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,799
inspection and then it's like a good

760
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,080
book or whatever

761
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,960
um in games that's not really true

762
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:04,640
in games if you want to if you want

763
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:07,600
things to work a certain way

764
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:11,120
you have to actually make them work

765
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:13,039
that way down to the core and you have

766
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,760
to come up with some consistent

767
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:18,000
system by which this kind of thing

768
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:18,960
happens

769
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:20,399
and

770
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:21,840
now now there's categories of games

771
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:23,440
where that's not true so we have these

772
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:26,080
like older you know point-and-click

773
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,159
adventures or whatever which are

774
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,840
basically a bunch of if statements for

775
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:31,520
the programmers out there but for the

776
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:33,039
games that aren't if statements for the

777
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:35,120
games that actually

778
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:36,960
decide what happens

779
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:37,840
by

780
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:41,200
simulating some state of some world

781
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:43,600
then it's actually a very fascinating

782
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:44,960
pursuit

783
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,520
to try to find

784
00:29:52,830 --> 00:29:49,520
a way

785
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,840
to make certain kinds of things happen

786
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:55,440
um that doesn't

787
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:58,000
that isn't self-contradictory or doesn't

788
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:01,760
you know destroy itself right and

789
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:11,990
it's not arbitrary in some sense right

790
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:14,880
like you

791
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:20,870
what happens in that simulation because

792
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:22,240
most decisions that you would make

793
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:25,360
especially if you're inexperienced would

794
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:27,120
result in things that cannot actually be

795
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:28,480
made because they don't make sense

796
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:30,960
they're not consistent right

797
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:33,600
but if you

798
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:35,840
if you come to it with an idea and then

799
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:38,480
you explore how things actually work and

800
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:42,630
use that to

801
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:45,039
modify your idea and aim your idea in a

802
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,720
slightly different direction and use

803
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,760
that slightly different direction of

804
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:49,440
your idea to go back and inform you

805
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:50,799
about what to explore about what the

806
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,240
possibilities are about where you could

807
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:54,399
take this system there's this nice back

808
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,240
and forth that you can engage in that

809
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,320
eventually takes you to places that are

810
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:00,000
very interesting

811
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:08,470
um

812
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:10,950
well you know so to go to go back to

813
00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:13,440
braid which was the first game that that

814
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:16,640
i released that was um

815
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:18,960
that was a big popular game

816
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:23,279
um that came out in about 2008 right um

817
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:25,519
a lot of the decisions

818
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:27,200
that i was making when i was designing

819
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:29,600
that were like how does time behave

820
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:33,279
right like this game is about

821
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:35,200
going to different worlds and time is

822
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,720
different in those worlds but

823
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:40,480
okay that's a very broad statement right

824
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:42,000
what do you actually do when you sit

825
00:31:44,710 --> 00:31:43,360
down to make the game

826
00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:44,720
well

827
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:51,350
and there's actually multiple layers of

828
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,640
constraints there's a there's an

829
00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:55,200
artistic layer of constraints like

830
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:58,240
does this idea of how time should behave

831
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,640
fit with what i'm trying to do

832
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:02,640
aesthetically with the rest of the game

833
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:05,440
and then there's um

834
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:06,880
like technically

835
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,039
we'll call it a technical problem the

836
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:11,519
system's design problem of

837
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:13,200
um

838
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:21,590
like how do you

839
00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:25,679
how do you make a system how it's it's

840
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,440
you have to keep stepping back from it

841
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:29,200
because you would think the problem is

842
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:30,640
how do you make a system that does what

843
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:32,320
i want but like i said that

844
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,640
doesn't work so it's like how do i

845
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,640
correctly engage in or successfully

846
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,480
engage in a process

847
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:40,960
where i start with an idea for a system

848
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:42,880
and what i want and iterate back and

849
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:44,880
forth on those things until i have a

850
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:47,840
final what i want that mostly coincides

851
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,240
with a final what am i able to build

852
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:51,840
that then

853
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,760
fits with the rest of this thing right

854
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:55,679
and so so to try to get more concrete

855
00:33:03,750 --> 00:32:56,720
about it

856
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:05,909
it's hard it's hard to to give

857
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:08,159
because the problem is this permeates

858
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:09,120
every

859
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:12,880
like when you're experienced and you

860
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:15,840
know what you're doing so it's like

861
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:17,919
every decision is made this way but a

862
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:19,440
lot of the decisions that i do from

863
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:21,120
moment to moment are so small that they

864
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:22,720
can't really be explained absent the

865
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:24,640
context of all these other things

866
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:26,159
um

867
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,840
like the examples that i'm that are

868
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,360
coming to mind right away are actually

869
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,279
examples more of

870
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:33,200
of something else that's more about

871
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:35,200
design

872
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:36,159
when you said that you had this

873
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:38,000
constraint so you want to play with time

874
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,760
and braid but then you also want it to

875
00:33:43,269 --> 00:33:41,600
make sense aesthetically can you give me

876
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:43,279
an example of what would and wouldn't

877
00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:48,470
uh do you mean aesthetically for the

878
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:57,269
part of the idea of the game

879
00:34:00,789 --> 00:33:58,720
is not just

880
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:00,799
that it's fictionally

881
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,480
about

882
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:03,919
playing with time this actually does

883
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:05,360
kind of dovetail into the previous

884
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:07,120
question that i feel like i i wish i

885
00:34:10,869 --> 00:34:08,320
knew how to answer better at that right

886
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:10,879
very great um

887
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:12,879
like it's supposed to be about actually

888
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,320
how time

889
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:15,520
is different

890
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:17,119
and it's supposed to be about

891
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:19,119
understanding the

892
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:21,119
interesting details that arise there

893
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,159
right so

894
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:24,320
you go from world to world in that game

895
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:27,679
and time changes how it behaves in each

896
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:29,280
world and

897
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,359
that leads to puzzles right but so

898
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:33,280
firstly the puzzles that you solve in

899
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:37,040
each world should have to do

900
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:37,919
with

901
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:40,720
the particular way that time behaves

902
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:43,520
there right like if i could do a puzzle

903
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:44,800
on world four

904
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:46,480
but i also could have done that puzzle

905
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:49,200
in world two

906
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:50,720
it doesn't really belong on world four

907
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,919
because world four is about

908
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,240
understanding this other thing right

909
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,919
okay like what the way time behaves

910
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:57,599
there right

911
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,920
um to give an example again to try to

912
00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:01,440
try to be more concrete in the beginning

913
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:02,960
of this game

914
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,720
you learn that you can just

915
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:06,720
rewind like you would rewind a video you

916
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:08,240
can rewind your gameplay anytime you

917
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,880
want and that's unlimited

918
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:12,480
and then later as you go through the

919
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:13,920
different worlds there are different

920
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,680
elaborations on that so in the next

921
00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:17,760
world you can rewind but then some

922
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:20,000
things don't ever rewind they always

923
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:21,920
just go forward right and and that gives

924
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:25,040
you sort of two classes of things um in

925
00:35:31,589 --> 00:35:30,150
you can rewind but also even when you're

926
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:31,599
not rewinding

927
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:32,480
um

928
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,480
space and time are

929
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:37,200
like projected onto each other so time

930
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:40,079
passes as you walk this way and it goes

931
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:42,800
backwards as you walk this way right

932
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:44,560
and so forth like there's there's just

933
00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:46,240
variations that occur as you move

934
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:47,599
through the game

935
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,280
um now

936
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:52,240
so i said puzzles

937
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,560
but even the word puzzle is misleading

938
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:56,400
because

939
00:36:02,950 --> 00:35:58,720
the point of it isn't really to be hard

940
00:36:05,589 --> 00:36:04,230
um

941
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:05,599
inspire

942
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,160
an understanding

943
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,870
of the things that this particular world

944
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:14,720
in the game is about

945
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:16,240
right

946
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:20,079
it's um so if if the way time behaves

947
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:23,280
in in world four is that it

948
00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:25,040
goes forward or backward as you walk

949
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:26,720
right or left

950
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:28,400
um

951
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:30,560
well that basic rule leads to

952
00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:32,880
consequences like what

953
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:34,720
what are in the same way that if you do

954
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,160
some math and you start with a

955
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:38,000
particular equation and you can like

956
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,680
start factoring that and combining it

957
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:40,800
with other things to see what the

958
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,040
consequences are right starting with

959
00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:45,760
that idea it leads to some consequences

960
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:47,839
right paired with the initial conditions

961
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:49,359
of these are the kinds of objects in the

962
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:50,960
game and whatever right

963
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:52,079
and so

964
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:53,920
those consequences are interesting and

965
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:55,599
the goal of a puzzle in this kind of a

966
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:58,800
game is to

967
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:01,599
illustrate a consequence in such a way

968
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:03,200
that hopefully

969
00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:05,680
um when you've seen the consequence it

970
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:07,920
makes the puzzle

971
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:10,640
understandable and solvable whereas when

972
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:12,160
you haven't seen the consequence the

973
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:14,000
puzzle is not understandable so it's not

974
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:17,119
like an arbitrary

975
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,000
um

976
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:20,880
you know difficult to perform thing it's

977
00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:24,000
like has an idea behind it right it

978
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:27,599
serves as a pointer to point at

979
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:29,839
a certain kind of idea

980
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:32,720
like oh

981
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:34,320
you know

982
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:35,680
when

983
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:39,359
um

984
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:40,640
you know

985
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:43,040
when you walk left well you thought you

986
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,720
had stomped on this monster's head

987
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:45,920
before

988
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:48,079
and in some other level he would be gone

989
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,520
and you could get past him but now

990
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:51,119
because you have to walk left to go up

991
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,720
here

992
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:54,960
he's in your way now you can't do that

993
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:58,000
right um that sounds very silly

994
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:00,960
like in of its own right but the point

995
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:03,680
of all of this right so human beings

996
00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:05,520
actually

997
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:07,359
um

998
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,280
find this kind of thing delightful and

999
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:11,280
i'm talking about it in a very sterile

1000
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:13,520
way but

1001
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:15,200
human beings um

1002
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:17,680
there is this well it actually it's a

1003
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,470
we like to come to understandings of

1004
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:30,480
things that we didn't understand before

1005
00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:32,000
and there there are many reasons for

1006
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,200
that right

1007
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,079
and so the art at least the the one of

1008
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:38,400
the personal arts that i've gotten into

1009
00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:39,920
is

1010
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:41,280
how do we

1011
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:46,950
this way

1012
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:47,760
of

1013
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:50,079
setting up ideas and curating them so

1014
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:51,520
that

1015
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:53,280
people have

1016
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:55,839
a rewarding experience having these

1017
00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:58,240
realizations right so it's not just like

1018
00:39:01,750 --> 00:39:00,079
how do we make games with tricky puzzles

1019
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:01,760
and then you feel smart when you solve

1020
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:02,960
them which is like

1021
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:05,680
what i think is the

1022
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:08,160
like through the game industry

1023
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:09,839
generally there's some idea that that's

1024
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:11,359
what a puzzle game is that's not really

1025
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:13,200
what i do

1026
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:14,640
yeah

1027
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:17,520
so now why is that interesting or

1028
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,880
important right

1029
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,040
aside from well i mean if you can make a

1030
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:24,400
positive time for people that

1031
00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:26,480
legitimately

1032
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:28,000
uh

1033
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:30,320
gives them things to think about then

1034
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,520
that's

1035
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:33,839
interesting right but then there's a

1036
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,400
more you know tying back to

1037
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:38,560
my desire to understand the universe

1038
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:40,839
originally right

1039
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:43,520
um what people do when they play this

1040
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,390
is they're trying to understand a

1041
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:50,240
universe but it's like a smaller simpler

1042
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,079
universe than the real one right and

1043
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:54,960
it's one it's one that was made by human

1044
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:58,560
beings and is therefore um

1045
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:05,349
less grand in many dimensions but

1046
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:06,400
but

1047
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:08,839
because it is embedded in our actual

1048
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:11,440
universe it can reflect things from the

1049
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:13,839
actual universe back at the player

1050
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,640
and

1051
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:17,040
that is actually very powerful

1052
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,200
um and it can do this in a way that

1053
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,760
other media can't really do or have a

1054
00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:23,200
hard time

1055
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:26,400
doing right so

1056
00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:28,560
in in fiction again if you want to

1057
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:31,119
reflect back

1058
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:40,230
i mean you can do that like it's just

1059
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,920
it's a different kind of reflection i

1060
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,359
almost don't know what more to say about

1061
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:45,359
it but but in this type of thing where

1062
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:47,920
you have a system operating and evolving

1063
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:49,760
over time right

1064
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:52,160
um

1065
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,560
like like in fiction you can illustrate

1066
00:40:58,710 --> 00:40:55,839
something that

1067
00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:58,720
might or could happen and you can talk

1068
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,359
about generally how things happen

1069
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:03,280
right like patterns like archetypal

1070
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,240
patterns

1071
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:06,400
well just i don't know you know

1072
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:07,200
like

1073
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:12,630
you know

1074
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,800
by the end there was a big war and it

1075
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:17,760
went badly for the people who

1076
00:41:21,829 --> 00:41:19,520
you know

1077
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,839
played a part in bringing it about and

1078
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:23,839
and stuff right and

1079
00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:26,560
um and so there's this big human theme

1080
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:28,640
about the way things play out over a

1081
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:30,640
long period of time

1082
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:31,680
um

1083
00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:32,880
that that's the kind of thing that you

1084
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:35,280
can talk about in fiction right um in in

1085
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:36,880
a video game

1086
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:41,990
you actually

1087
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:44,000
have things playing out over time

1088
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:45,599
actually right

1089
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,480
and so

1090
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:48,640
the way that you can reflect

1091
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,520
back

1092
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:51,520
aspects of our universe

1093
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:57,270
by actually

1094
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,119
doing the thing that the universe does

1095
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:01,599
as opposed to talking about it

1096
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:03,520
and that's actually pretty powerful

1097
00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:05,680
right and so so to step back maybe i'm

1098
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:07,839
skipping a step or two here but what's

1099
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:10,160
very interesting to me about the ability

1100
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,640
to work in this art form is

1101
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,880
um not just that you're giving people a

1102
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,480
hopefully positive interesting

1103
00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:18,960
experience where they got to

1104
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,230
tricks or

1105
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:26,160
puzzles that seemed impossible and then

1106
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,520
and then they solved them and they got

1107
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,200
this great feeling that they solved them

1108
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,960
right it's that

1109
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:31,760
a

1110
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,160
um

1111
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:44,720
and these are things like

1112
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:49,910
you know like the the universe is a

1113
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:52,640
process of change or

1114
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:56,790
or uh

1115
00:43:02,230 --> 00:42:59,119
play like even um

1116
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:02,240
you know ideas about about divine play

1117
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:05,040
of form and whatever right

1118
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:06,240
um and

1119
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,680
the thing is when you show somebody a

1120
00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:10,079
simplified universe that is doing that

1121
00:43:13,670 --> 00:43:12,560
and i have i have to emphasize it is

1122
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:13,680
doing that

1123
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:15,520
because it borrows it from the bigger

1124
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:17,119
universe that we're in

1125
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:17,920
um

1126
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:19,920
it can't do it by itself or at least i

1127
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:22,400
don't if i ever knew how to how to make

1128
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:32,790
you give people a feeling for that thing

1129
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:33,599
right

1130
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:34,480
for

1131
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:39,280
you you let people experience a bit of

1132
00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:42,079
of divine play of

1133
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:42,380
um

1134
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:44,319
[Music]

1135
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:45,680
of this

1136
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,400
delight that the universe has in

1137
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,400
changing one situation into a new

1138
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:52,480
situation right

1139
00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:57,510
and

1140
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,040
right or if people do that enough they

1141
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:03,040
can get a feel for this thing in a

1142
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,640
different way than they could from other

1143
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:06,319
places and i think that's

1144
00:44:11,109 --> 00:44:09,280
very interesting

1145
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,119
with your puzzles do you try to make it

1146
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:13,280
such that the mechanics of the puzzle or

1147
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:15,200
the method that you solve it

1148
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,319
indicates something thematically

1149
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:20,079
or is it simply

1150
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:22,240
while you're understanding more about

1151
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:24,560
the mechanism of the universe so here's

1152
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:26,640
an example in braid

1153
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,440
there was the ring now i'm recalling 15

1154
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:31,280
years or however long ago yeah so there

1155
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,880
was a ring and

1156
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:34,240
what i got the sense of was that it was

1157
00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:35,760
almost like it weighted you down in the

1158
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:37,520
same way that some people feel like

1159
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:39,599
marriage does that for them or at least

1160
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,520
horrible marriages do that for them and

1161
00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:43,200
time

1162
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:44,960
there was a spatial temporal aspect

1163
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:46,480
where the closer you are to that ring

1164
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:49,200
the slower time was

1165
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:50,480
okay

1166
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:52,000
so that

1167
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,599
in a sense you could have done that with

1168
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,880
any object you could have done that with

1169
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:56,319
the box you could have done that with

1170
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,319
the player's character itself you could

1171
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:00,560
have done that with an enemy but in

1172
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:02,240
chess you instead you chose a ring

1173
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:03,440
because

1174
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,119
thematically

1175
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,920
the theme thing plays a different role

1176
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:12,240
than it does in other media right so

1177
00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:14,160
again if you're gonna go write fiction

1178
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:15,200
or

1179
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:16,880
do a film

1180
00:45:21,990 --> 00:45:18,880
right um

1181
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,000
because you're telling a story

1182
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:24,560
like the theme of the story is part of

1183
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,079
what

1184
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:28,160
gives the story

1185
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:31,839
coherence right or whatever right and

1186
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,720
and when we think about theme

1187
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,400
in those contexts we think about

1188
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:37,920
fictional

1189
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:39,040
elements

1190
00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:40,800
that

1191
00:45:44,309 --> 00:45:43,440
cohere with each other i guess right

1192
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:44,319
yeah

1193
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:47,359
um okay

1194
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:48,800
in games

1195
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:52,560
when i do them um i feel like okay

1196
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:54,560
there's a certain kind of storytelling

1197
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:56,319
that

1198
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:58,160
people in film

1199
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:01,359
or people who write novels

1200
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:03,440
already do they've got that covered

1201
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:05,119
right i don't really need to do that

1202
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,200
right what i should be thinking about is

1203
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:09,760
what i can do over here that that their

1204
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,599
media don't really do right or can't do

1205
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:15,599
work or can't do or

1206
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:18,560
maybe even are just 30 less effective at

1207
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:20,800
doing like whatever right

1208
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:24,390
um and that's actually it's a

1209
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:26,720
fascinating process of exploration to

1210
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,560
try to discover that because

1211
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,880
this is a relatively new medium and this

1212
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:32,640
stuff hasn't been mapped out really

1213
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:34,160
right it's like in the early days of

1214
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:35,440
film

1215
00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:38,480
um

1216
00:46:41,910 --> 00:46:40,240
it was more like you're recording a

1217
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:41,920
stage play and playing it back so they

1218
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,880
didn't have this language of

1219
00:46:46,710 --> 00:46:44,800
cinematography that they developed later

1220
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:46,720
about when they realized that they could

1221
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:48,720
start cutting between scenes and people

1222
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:50,160
would follow it and then that they could

1223
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:53,440
even move the cameras and whatever

1224
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,119
that that was a big

1225
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:56,800
those were big steps in developing the

1226
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,640
language of film which would be

1227
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,400
impoverished without having discovered

1228
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:02,640
those things right and so we haven't

1229
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:04,880
figured out all those things in games

1230
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,200
uh yet but in part i think because games

1231
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:09,040
are so complicated it's going to take us

1232
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:10,640
quite a while

1233
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:13,920
to do all that um

1234
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:15,200
so

1235
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:19,359
example that you brought up

1236
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:21,040
um

1237
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:23,200
i definitely had

1238
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:25,200
as part of the original picture of that

1239
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:27,920
specific game

1240
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:31,119
that there was this fictional like

1241
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:33,440
brace around it that tied it together

1242
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:34,720
but the

1243
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:36,559
the gameplay

1244
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:39,119
was the absolute core of it and the

1245
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:40,079
fiction

1246
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:41,520
like i wouldn't say it was less

1247
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:43,200
important

1248
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:44,079
to me

1249
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:46,880
um but it was

1250
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:48,400
um

1251
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,760
like the fiction was something that i

1252
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:51,599
could do somewhere else if i just wanted

1253
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:53,119
to write fiction right

1254
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:54,400
so

1255
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:57,200
when it comes to

1256
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:00,720
um and what that where that came from

1257
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,800
and what that is

1258
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:04,319
um

1259
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:11,190
that i think

1260
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:19,030
i think i do this the way a number of

1261
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:21,280
artists do where

1262
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:22,800
these decisions are considered to be

1263
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:24,079
very important

1264
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:28,870
um

1265
00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:31,440
there's some kind of very subtle balance

1266
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:34,400
of many factors that tries to help the

1267
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,160
decision or help

1268
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:38,160
make that decision right um in this

1269
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,680
particular case

1270
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:41,040
well okay

1271
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:42,640
there's a there's a kind of a right

1272
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:44,800
making of things

1273
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:46,640
that i don't think we have a very clear

1274
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:49,359
idea of in the west i somehow absorbed

1275
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:50,960
it

1276
00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:56,960
been when i was growing up or something

1277
00:49:01,829 --> 00:48:59,200
right but like

1278
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:01,839
you want things you want elements that

1279
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:03,839
harmonize with each other

1280
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:05,760
to build something

1281
00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:08,079
that is more than the sum of its parts

1282
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:11,599
right okay so so going back to

1283
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:14,480
this time slow down effect

1284
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:17,920
which is in braid um in world six

1285
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:18,880
uh

1286
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:21,040
well

1287
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:24,559
the idea that i had was

1288
00:49:28,150 --> 00:49:26,240
you know i'd originally started with you

1289
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,160
know physics concepts or something so i

1290
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:30,319
was like oh well maybe there's something

1291
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:32,319
like a black hole right time effect as

1292
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:34,400
you get closer to the middle well if you

1293
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:37,280
know any physics like what's the most

1294
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,160
natural simplest shape of that

1295
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,480
distortion right it's going to be

1296
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:44,640
spherical or in a 2d world it's going to

1297
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:45,359
be

1298
00:49:50,470 --> 00:49:48,480
radial with the intensity

1299
00:49:52,630 --> 00:49:50,480
increasing from the center and so if i

1300
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:52,640
wanted to be like the physical world i

1301
00:49:56,710 --> 00:49:55,839
wanted it to act in that kind of a way

1302
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:56,720
so

1303
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:58,319
if i if i have the idea that there's

1304
00:50:01,430 --> 00:50:00,480
this world with this time slow down

1305
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:01,440
effect

1306
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:05,040
be natural so i already have this

1307
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,200
picture of something that's circular

1308
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:09,200
all right so what should be emanating

1309
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:10,480
this circular

1310
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:12,400
effect probably something that's also

1311
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:16,470
well

1312
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,400
what is it that's circular

1313
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:20,400
but also

1314
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,440
you know

1315
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:23,680
embedded in this fiction

1316
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,680
that is something about a relationship

1317
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,160
or desired relationship between two

1318
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,160
people right

1319
00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:33,430
well

1320
00:50:37,510 --> 00:50:35,200
so a ring

1321
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:37,520
made sense and that's a sign of devotion

1322
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:41,359
to a to a cause which is another element

1323
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,280
of the theme and so there's a way of all

1324
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:45,119
these things multi-dimensionally coming

1325
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:47,280
together and making

1326
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:49,520
like what's the right

1327
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:51,040
what's the right choice

1328
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:53,040
so that's really what it's about it's

1329
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:55,680
it's not really um

1330
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,920
oh i think this would be cool to add to

1331
00:51:01,910 --> 00:50:59,599
the story so i'm going to add this one

1332
00:51:03,670 --> 00:51:01,920
thing it's like it fits into this very

1333
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,680
complex

1334
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:05,839
webbing of

1335
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:08,160
of stuff yeah so in that example you

1336
00:51:11,829 --> 00:51:09,440
have the property of time slowing down

1337
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:11,839
then you're wondering okay well it's

1338
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:13,839
circular and then what circular that's

1339
00:51:17,030 --> 00:51:15,440
related to this relationship and then

1340
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:17,040
you also so that's one element that you

1341
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:18,800
want to relate it to then you also have

1342
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,119
some other elements which most of them

1343
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:23,040
are probably unconscious but you have

1344
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,400
other elements

1345
00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:27,359
are you consciously trying to relate it

1346
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:33,510
and when you're doing this like are you

1347
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:35,280
thinking out loud by speaking to someone

1348
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:37,599
are you just writing are you going for a

1349
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:38,559
walk

1350
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:41,119
obviously i imagine it varies

1351
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:43,760
yeah i mean broadly speaking what you

1352
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:46,400
said about maximizing the connections

1353
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,720
feels kind of right to me but not

1354
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:50,960
entirely right because you can make

1355
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,280
arbitrary meaningless connections too

1356
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:56,160
and those aren't necessarily good right

1357
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:01,349
so they're too contrived

1358
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:04,079
yeah or they don't serve any purpose

1359
00:52:14,549 --> 00:52:07,680
other than being connections

1360
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:16,390
or they're just about trying to show off

1361
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,240
as opposed to trying to communicate

1362
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:20,720
something coherent right

1363
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:22,160
so

1364
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,640
um but but in general

1365
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,960
because because these things are hard to

1366
00:52:30,390 --> 00:52:28,160
do

1367
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,400
then it's usually a sign of success if

1368
00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:32,400
you find a new connection

1369
00:52:35,349 --> 00:52:33,680
that

1370
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:35,359
makes sense and fits into the scheme of

1371
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:38,800
what you're trying to do right

1372
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:45,030
are very difficult to think about

1373
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:46,960
logically and linearly

1374
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:53,109
because your logical mind is kind of

1375
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:56,800
slow right you need leaps of intuition

1376
00:53:02,710 --> 00:52:57,599
to

1377
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:02,720
then

1378
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:05,680
keep going and and

1379
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:07,520
solve solve the rest of this intricate

1380
00:53:13,750 --> 00:53:09,760
problem of how do you make this thing um

1381
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:17,270
i don't i've i've never controlled them

1382
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:18,079
right

1383
00:53:23,270 --> 00:53:21,119
they just they show up um

1384
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:23,280
if i'm in a more receptive state

1385
00:53:29,750 --> 00:53:26,000
they might show up more easily um

1386
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:29,760
definitely when dancing yeah um there's

1387
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,280
something about that because um

1388
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:35,520
you know it gives the mind a rest

1389
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,440
because i'm doing these other things

1390
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:39,839
um but also just

1391
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:44,870
matters in a certain or not even

1392
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:47,040
deliberately preparing but you know

1393
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:48,640
sometimes i do a lot of creative work

1394
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:51,359
and sometimes i do a lot of um

1395
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:52,400
just

1396
00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:54,480
technical problem solving work that is

1397
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:56,640
creative in its own way but not

1398
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:58,960
the same way i don't think and when i'm

1399
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:01,599
doing a lot of creative work

1400
00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:03,280
that's the time when i have more of

1401
00:54:08,829 --> 00:54:04,319
those

1402
00:54:08,839 --> 00:54:12,950
um uh

1403
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,230
just dawning of

1404
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,150
good ideas that fit in and help right um

1405
00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:22,160
and other times

1406
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:23,760
uh when i'm doing just a lot of

1407
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:25,839
technical work um

1408
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:27,440
i don't know that probably happens too

1409
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:30,400
to a degree but um

1410
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:32,079
not as much like i

1411
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:33,920
they don't seem to need to be as deep

1412
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:35,680
when i'm like trying to figure out a

1413
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:37,599
technical system

1414
00:54:40,630 --> 00:54:38,400
you know

1415
00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:40,640
in the witness there are plenty of

1416
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:42,480
what look like tetris pieces and then

1417
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:47,510
you have to draw outlines of some of

1418
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:49,440
those pieces how are those related

1419
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:51,520
thematically i know that you don't care

1420
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:52,400
well

1421
00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:54,640
yeah is not the predominant factor in

1422
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:56,559
your mind well the other thing is i'm

1423
00:55:02,309 --> 00:54:58,319
never gonna sit here and tell you really

1424
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:02,319
what a game is about because

1425
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:03,359
uh

1426
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:05,040
first like i feel

1427
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,520
it's not really possible to say that

1428
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:09,119
like that's something that i felt from a

1429
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:11,359
very young age and

1430
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:12,720
it took me a while to realize most

1431
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,480
people don't feel that way

1432
00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:17,280
um but it feels like

1433
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:19,119
actually somebody was asking me last

1434
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,880
night um

1435
00:55:24,549 --> 00:55:22,960
hey what

1436
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:24,559
what do you think of this particular

1437
00:55:27,829 --> 00:55:26,240
director's movie or whatever and i'm

1438
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:27,839
like

1439
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:29,920
it's offensive for me to

1440
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,040
say

1441
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:33,520
what i think of it in that way because

1442
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:35,200
it's actually a very deep thing that he

1443
00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:36,960
obviously cared about very much and it's

1444
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:38,720
this

1445
00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:41,440
subtle you know multi-dimensional

1446
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,319
expression and i i can't like what that

1447
00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:46,640
thing is i can't like

1448
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:47,520
say

1449
00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:00,549
paying less respect than it deserves

1450
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:03,040
before i even get to the point where

1451
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:04,880
um

1452
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:07,119
where uh

1453
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,280
where i do that well or not right and

1454
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:11,520
i'm not going to do the best job i'm

1455
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:13,440
unsure about the example that you're

1456
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,520
thinking about but is it with regard to

1457
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:17,599
blame or praise

1458
00:56:21,510 --> 00:56:19,839
like evaluating the movies to being good

1459
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:21,520
no i mean it's more about just saying

1460
00:56:25,829 --> 00:56:24,720
what they're what what are they about

1461
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:25,839
um

1462
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:27,440
why is that offensive

1463
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,280
or doing a disservice to the filmmaker

1464
00:56:33,030 --> 00:56:31,359
or to whoever was the artist why can't

1465
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:33,040
you say well here's what i think it's

1466
00:56:36,309 --> 00:56:34,319
about what do you think it's about and

1467
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:36,319
then you have a conversation and perhaps

1468
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:38,000
the artist intended for you to have a

1469
00:56:45,829 --> 00:56:40,880
conversation why is being silent

1470
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:47,750
this is a hard question because on the

1471
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:50,079
one hand it's very obvious to me

1472
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,920
and on the other hand i don't

1473
00:56:55,270 --> 00:56:53,359
i haven't ever really tried to

1474
00:56:57,030 --> 00:56:55,280
articulate this with people so i don't

1475
00:57:05,910 --> 00:56:57,040
just i don't have spit it's all right

1476
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:07,589
you're among friends the audience loves

1477
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:09,599
yeah so let me relate this back to what

1478
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,559
i try to do a little bit

1479
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,079
because i can't i can't really speak for

1480
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,400
other people of course other artists

1481
00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:17,760
making things

1482
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:25,270
okay there's this idea that i was taught

1483
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:27,440
in in grade school

1484
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:29,280
about fiction

1485
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:30,480
you know like you're supposed to read

1486
00:57:34,789 --> 00:57:33,680
the fiction and you do your book report

1487
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:34,799
and

1488
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:36,400
um

1489
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:38,720
what i was taught was that works of

1490
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:40,640
fiction have

1491
00:57:44,069 --> 00:57:42,799
messages in them like morals or

1492
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:44,079
something

1493
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:46,000
and

1494
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:47,680
sometimes they're buried in their like

1495
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:49,200
secret messages that you have to

1496
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:51,040
interpret right and then and then you

1497
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,559
get it and then you can write it in your

1498
00:57:58,069 --> 00:57:55,200
book report and

1499
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:58,079
these are overly simplistic

1500
00:58:07,750 --> 00:57:59,359
and the reason they are overly

1501
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:09,589
they're overly simplistic for the work

1502
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:12,480
of of many artists not all like some

1503
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:13,520
artists

1504
00:58:18,069 --> 00:58:15,599
and this is actually very popular today

1505
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:18,079
i would say um

1506
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,160
like you know today a lot of politically

1507
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:22,240
motivated things are written right and

1508
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:24,240
if you want to write a work with a

1509
00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:25,680
political message

1510
00:58:29,270 --> 00:58:28,240
that can be stated plainly like

1511
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:29,280
you know

1512
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,960
um

1513
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:33,200
you know communism is good or something

1514
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:34,720
and if you don't like communism you're

1515
00:58:38,710 --> 00:58:36,559
bad

1516
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,720
then you can make some fiction that

1517
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:40,160
illustrates that and then you can say

1518
00:58:44,789 --> 00:58:42,400
that that's what that's about but that's

1519
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:44,799
not the school of art that i'm in

1520
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:46,559
and and that's really not the school of

1521
00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:48,960
art that a number of people are in right

1522
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:52,480
and so the school of art that i'm in is

1523
00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:55,040
art is

1524
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:57,359
like good art that is worth me spending

1525
00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:00,880
my time well okay i'm not the judge like

1526
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:02,720
thinking your own art is good is pompous

1527
00:59:07,349 --> 00:59:04,400
right but obviously i'm trying to make

1528
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:07,359
it good okay that's why you work hard on

1529
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,640
these things right don't worry about the

1530
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:10,880
disclaimer so i'm trying to make it good

1531
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:19,990
it has to be about something that i

1532
00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:22,559
don't completely have a grasp of

1533
00:59:26,390 --> 00:59:23,680
right

1534
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:26,400
if i can sit here and say

1535
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:27,839
uh

1536
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:29,839
the moral of the story is always look

1537
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:31,280
before you leap and that's what this

1538
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,520
piece of art is about or whatever

1539
00:59:36,309 --> 00:59:35,040
um

1540
00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:36,319
that's

1541
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:38,799
not interesting enough to me to spend

1542
00:59:43,829 --> 00:59:41,359
years of my life like grappling very

1543
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:43,839
tightly with something and and trying to

1544
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:46,480
figure it out right so what

1545
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:48,240
when i make a game that's built around

1546
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,240
something it's because i'm reaching a

1547
00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:53,040
little bit it's like here's a direction

1548
00:59:57,270 --> 00:59:55,760
that i find interesting and fascinating

1549
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:57,280
and

1550
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,880
there's something that's a little bit

1551
01:00:03,670 --> 01:00:00,960
beyond my grasp in this direction and

1552
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:03,680
the function of art

1553
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:06,400
is to somehow help with that

1554
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:08,400
right

1555
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:10,640
um

1556
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:12,400
you know there's the old parable of

1557
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:15,520
pointing at the moon and

1558
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:17,440
you know i'm sure you've heard this one

1559
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:18,240
right

1560
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:19,359
um

1561
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:20,240
it's

1562
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:22,640
i i'm gonna butcher it because i don't

1563
01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:24,880
really remember it but um you know it's

1564
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:26,720
it's a metaphor for

1565
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:28,400
enlightenment right and

1566
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:31,119
the guru is pointing at the moon

1567
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:32,319
and

1568
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:33,839
the initiate is

1569
01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:36,880
looking and seeing the the finger right

1570
01:00:39,510 --> 01:00:38,480
and thinking he's talking about his

1571
01:00:40,829 --> 01:00:39,520
finger

1572
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,839
right and

1573
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:42,400
so

1574
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:43,520
um

1575
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,760
what i'm speaking about now is is in a

1576
01:00:50,470 --> 01:00:47,040
smaller

1577
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,480
grappling than that

1578
01:01:05,430 --> 01:00:53,040
um but

1579
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:08,309
like like in some sense

1580
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:11,520
if i'm gonna engage in this act of of

1581
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:13,599
communication of of this

1582
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:15,359
multi-dimensional putting all this stuff

1583
01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:16,880
together and giving it to you and say

1584
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:18,720
here look at this right

1585
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:19,760
um

1586
01:01:23,589 --> 01:01:21,760
it's gonna be about whatever is the most

1587
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:23,599
important thing that i know to make it

1588
01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:24,559
about

1589
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:28,960
are unresolved for me

1590
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:31,359
in in

1591
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:33,040
the biggest sphere

1592
01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:35,520
of contention possible that i know how

1593
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:37,040
to

1594
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:39,760
approach in any reasonable way and so

1595
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:42,000
i can't even

1596
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:43,760
really like if i were to sit down and

1597
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,680
tell you like what the witness is about

1598
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:47,040
i'm picking that one because it's a

1599
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:48,640
bigger game than braid by like a lot

1600
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:50,319
right it's got way more stuff in it we

1601
01:02:01,750 --> 01:01:58,470
i can't even satisfyingly tell you

1602
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:03,589
because it's not really verbalizable to

1603
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:05,119
me the most important parts of it are

1604
01:02:08,309 --> 01:02:06,880
not verbalizable to me so the best that

1605
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:08,319
i can do

1606
01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:09,920
and when i say so

1607
01:02:14,789 --> 01:02:12,400
so verbalizable that's linguistic

1608
01:02:17,190 --> 01:02:14,799
communication right but then part of the

1609
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,200
reason i'm interested in video games is

1610
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:19,520
there's this other kind of communication

1611
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:20,960
that

1612
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,599
mentioned

1613
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,000
and and that gives you another sort of

1614
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:28,640
piece of structure that you can use

1615
01:02:32,829 --> 01:02:30,960
and so maybe you can put together enough

1616
01:02:34,549 --> 01:02:32,839
pieces of structure

1617
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:34,559
to

1618
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:36,720
go around the thing you can't quite

1619
01:02:41,029 --> 01:02:39,280
handle or point at it or

1620
01:02:41,829 --> 01:02:41,039
something like that right and so that's

1621
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:41,839
what

1622
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:44,240
these processes are like to me

1623
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:53,349
so

1624
01:03:02,950 --> 01:02:54,470
how

1625
01:03:05,910 --> 01:03:02,960
somebody else's thing is about if it's

1626
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:05,920
if it's something that was

1627
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:08,720
made in that

1628
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:12,319
light right in that in that manner of of

1629
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:15,039
action um you know if i want to tell you

1630
01:03:20,309 --> 01:03:18,240
what like avengers infinity war is about

1631
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:20,319
like that's not very hard but i also

1632
01:03:23,430 --> 01:03:22,319
don't care that much about that movie

1633
01:03:24,309 --> 01:03:23,440
right

1634
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:24,319
so

1635
01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:26,319
um

1636
01:03:33,829 --> 01:03:31,829
you know so so

1637
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:33,839
i like a couple of david lynch's movies

1638
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:36,079
really a lot right and so i'm not gonna

1639
01:03:40,789 --> 01:03:37,359
try to get an interview with them

1640
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:40,799
actually oh yeah that might be hard

1641
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:42,319
but but the point is

1642
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,789
inappropriate and somewhat

1643
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:52,390
belittling not belittling because

1644
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:53,520
belittling would mean that you

1645
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,190
disrespectful and

1646
01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:03,680
not acknowledging of what is there in

1647
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:05,119
order to

1648
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:06,160
say

1649
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:08,160
oh the movie mulholland drive is about

1650
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:09,440
the following thing and write a

1651
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:12,400
paragraph like that just doesn't work it

1652
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:14,960
just doesn't work

1653
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:16,319
sorry i feel like i've gone on about

1654
01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:18,559
this for a long time no that's fine you

1655
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:20,400
actually remind me i was listening to a

1656
01:04:25,270 --> 01:04:22,160
conversation with you

1657
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:25,280
speaking about art and i

1658
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:26,880
have similar feelings with regard to

1659
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:29,520
modern art i'm not a fan of modern art

1660
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:31,520
i'm really not either

1661
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:33,440
at least for me the reason it's somewhat

1662
01:04:37,109 --> 01:04:34,079
of

1663
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:37,119
it's somewhat like carl jung reasons

1664
01:04:41,670 --> 01:04:38,400
although i don't know if he comments it

1665
01:04:44,549 --> 01:04:41,680
on modern art but he would call what you

1666
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:44,559
he would make a delineation that

1667
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:46,480
art that you described initially is

1668
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,720
propaganda art so it's art following

1669
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:50,480
one's own construction

1670
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,240
and then the other type of art it's the

1671
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:55,200
exploration of the unknown yes and when

1672
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:57,680
i see modern art

1673
01:05:00,789 --> 01:04:58,559
it's

1674
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:00,799
people making a statement and i don't

1675
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:02,799
think art should be about

1676
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:04,640
you shouldn't as the artist you

1677
01:05:08,950 --> 01:05:05,920
shouldn't know what it's about while

1678
01:05:11,029 --> 01:05:08,960
you're creating it you could post

1679
01:05:12,549 --> 01:05:11,039
post hoc come up with what it's about

1680
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:12,559
but you shouldn't while you're creating

1681
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,640
it say this is going to be about so and

1682
01:05:19,270 --> 01:05:16,000
so because

1683
01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:19,280
at least from one perspective true art

1684
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:20,400
is

1685
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:26,960
wrong or past

1686
01:05:30,870 --> 01:05:29,440
this domain that you

1687
01:05:34,230 --> 01:05:30,880
or passed your

1688
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:34,240
or past your existing knowledge set

1689
01:05:39,910 --> 01:05:38,960
yeah i mean i think that if you haven't

1690
01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:39,920
if the

1691
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:44,319
uh

1692
01:05:48,630 --> 01:05:46,400
developed you as a person in some way

1693
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:48,640
maybe it wasn't that good

1694
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:49,599
right

1695
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:52,400
um i do think so modern art i don't have

1696
01:05:54,710 --> 01:05:53,599
much

1697
01:05:55,829 --> 01:05:54,720
interest in

1698
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:55,839
um

1699
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:57,920
or contemporary art i should say right

1700
01:06:01,910 --> 01:06:00,799
like um modern art means like a school

1701
01:06:06,069 --> 01:06:01,920
of

1702
01:06:09,029 --> 01:06:06,079
art that was a certain thing um

1703
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:09,039
i like art museums turned into like

1704
01:06:12,309 --> 01:06:11,039
fashion galleries at some point and they

1705
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,319
sort of became

1706
01:06:17,270 --> 01:06:14,640
so there's this element that has been in

1707
01:06:20,069 --> 01:06:17,280
art for all of history which is

1708
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:20,079
here's an idea that was encapsulated in

1709
01:06:23,109 --> 01:06:21,599
this thing and it was an idea that

1710
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:23,119
nobody had really

1711
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:25,920
done before or had executed on it quite

1712
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:26,960
this way

1713
01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:28,000
and so

1714
01:06:32,069 --> 01:06:29,200
you know

1715
01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:32,079
therefore

1716
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,839
like somehow those ideas became

1717
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:35,200
fetishized

1718
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:35,920
and

1719
01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:41,359
it's very easy to like

1720
01:06:45,589 --> 01:06:43,599
make a canvas or some juxtaposition of

1721
01:06:48,230 --> 01:06:45,599
objects that like

1722
01:06:50,309 --> 01:06:48,240
has some idea in it maybe the idea is

1723
01:06:51,510 --> 01:06:50,319
not very good but but that seems to be

1724
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,520
all that people care about in

1725
01:06:55,750 --> 01:06:53,200
contemporary art now and there are just

1726
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,760
things like

1727
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,599
like skill matters

1728
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:59,440
you know and i think that's been lost

1729
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:00,880
like if you look at these renaissance

1730
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:02,799
paintings of like

1731
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:04,880
people who

1732
01:07:09,029 --> 01:07:06,880
obviously devoted a great deal of time

1733
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,039
and energy to be able to paint beautiful

1734
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:11,520
things right and then when you execute a

1735
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:12,640
work

1736
01:07:16,710 --> 01:07:15,119
using the skill that is a result of all

1737
01:07:17,589 --> 01:07:16,720
that time and energy

1738
01:07:19,589 --> 01:07:17,599
um

1739
01:07:20,470 --> 01:07:19,599
it's devotional in a certain way it's

1740
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:20,480
like

1741
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:23,680
it adds to the

1742
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:26,160
magnitude of the expression

1743
01:07:32,549 --> 01:07:27,359
um

1744
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:32,559
like you've got skin in the game now

1745
01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:33,599
right

1746
01:07:37,589 --> 01:07:35,680
why do you think it is that now skill

1747
01:07:39,589 --> 01:07:37,599
doesn't seem to matter as much

1748
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:39,599
well again i think because it's fashion

1749
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:43,440
right they just want new stuff to put it

1750
01:07:46,390 --> 01:07:45,359
it's a social scene

1751
01:07:49,589 --> 01:07:46,400
right

1752
01:07:50,870 --> 01:07:49,599
um like most people don't really go

1753
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:50,880
to

1754
01:07:58,390 --> 01:07:56,870
more than once or twice out of their own

1755
01:08:00,069 --> 01:07:58,400
interest right it because what's in

1756
01:08:01,270 --> 01:08:00,079
there is not really relevant to most

1757
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:01,280
people but

1758
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:04,400
if you want either to be in the scene of

1759
01:08:08,549 --> 01:08:06,240
people who are really into contemporary

1760
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:08,559
art that's one function or if you want

1761
01:08:13,029 --> 01:08:10,640
to signal to other people that like i'm

1762
01:08:14,710 --> 01:08:13,039
sophisticated therefore i go to this art

1763
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:14,720
gallery that's another function of it

1764
01:08:20,070 --> 01:08:17,839
but yeah i think it's actually um i

1765
01:08:22,149 --> 01:08:20,080
don't know it's not it's not completely

1766
01:08:23,669 --> 01:08:22,159
a write-off like you can go

1767
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:23,679
into some place like that and find a

1768
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:25,679
couple things that are interesting but

1769
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,839
it's i don't think i have not been able

1770
01:08:31,749 --> 01:08:29,520
to find

1771
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:31,759
interest in most of it right

1772
01:08:35,590 --> 01:08:32,480
and

1773
01:08:37,669 --> 01:08:35,600
for me when i go to a gallery

1774
01:08:40,630 --> 01:08:37,679
if i look at let's say renaissance art

1775
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:40,640
some of it makes me want to cry and drop

1776
01:08:44,789 --> 01:08:43,120
to my knees and how

1777
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,799
first of all gorgeous it is how much

1778
01:08:49,349 --> 01:08:46,880
mastery there is in

1779
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:49,359
almost every square inch

1780
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:50,880
and then if i look at

1781
01:08:56,709 --> 01:08:53,759
a piece of modern art it's as if

1782
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,719
the amount of skill it's like

1783
01:09:00,309 --> 01:08:58,000
like i was saying it's more about the

1784
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:00,319
commentary than it is about the piece

1785
01:09:05,990 --> 01:09:03,120
yeah and none of it makes me

1786
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:06,000
want to weep let's say or think man that

1787
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:06,960
it

1788
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:09,040
sometimes that's creative and i like

1789
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:10,239
that because

1790
01:09:14,149 --> 01:09:11,759
like i mentioned from you i like playing

1791
01:09:15,990 --> 01:09:14,159
with the form so i do like let's say

1792
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:16,000
something simple like uh

1793
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:18,480
a painting is meant to be seen at an

1794
01:09:23,510 --> 01:09:21,759
angle so it's a skew but it makes sense

1795
01:09:25,030 --> 01:09:23,520
because it's

1796
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:25,040
so like if you look okay you get the

1797
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:27,359
idea yeah so i like that but it rarely

1798
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:29,199
evokes something in me

1799
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:33,279
yeah i feel like we are we are in

1800
01:09:36,870 --> 01:09:35,359
times that are a little bit dark when it

1801
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:36,880
comes to art

1802
01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,550
like the current educational

1803
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,319
institutions right

1804
01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:48,960
have all kinds of reasons about why

1805
01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:50,719
our current

1806
01:09:54,709 --> 01:09:52,880
you know if you like i know some people

1807
01:09:57,270 --> 01:09:54,719
who i could get into an argument with

1808
01:09:59,189 --> 01:09:57,280
these things about where um

1809
01:10:02,470 --> 01:09:59,199
you know they have all sorts of reasons

1810
01:10:04,229 --> 01:10:02,480
why our current way of doing art is the

1811
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:04,239
most enlightened right because if you go

1812
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,840
back in history like this artist did

1813
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:07,440
this to show this and that artist did

1814
01:10:12,149 --> 01:10:09,440
that to show that and all of these

1815
01:10:15,510 --> 01:10:12,159
things have an element of truth in them

1816
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:16,950
but

1817
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:19,360
there's this thing that human beings do

1818
01:10:26,790 --> 01:10:24,630
they overcompensate and they they take

1819
01:10:28,550 --> 01:10:26,800
things way too far right

1820
01:10:31,030 --> 01:10:28,560
um and i think that's what we've done

1821
01:10:33,270 --> 01:10:31,040
and we haven't

1822
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:33,280
we haven't properly seen all the things

1823
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:35,920
that we've given up including

1824
01:10:39,030 --> 01:10:37,199
um

1825
01:10:41,189 --> 01:10:39,040
really the things that make art most

1826
01:10:43,270 --> 01:10:41,199
beautiful like they've been they've been

1827
01:10:44,390 --> 01:10:43,280
abandoned and decided that they're

1828
01:10:45,590 --> 01:10:44,400
arbitrary

1829
01:10:47,430 --> 01:10:45,600
right

1830
01:10:48,870 --> 01:10:47,440
um so

1831
01:10:51,110 --> 01:10:48,880
what would be a better question to ask

1832
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:51,120
you instead of what did you think let's

1833
01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:53,040
say you were speaking with this person

1834
01:10:56,870 --> 01:10:55,440
last night about a movie instead of this

1835
01:10:58,550 --> 01:10:56,880
person saying what do you think about

1836
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:58,560
this movie what do you think the artist

1837
01:11:02,310 --> 01:11:00,080
meant what would be a better question

1838
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,320
i'm not very good at how do you feel

1839
01:11:06,790 --> 01:11:04,400
no you know i feel about this movie i

1840
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:06,800
don't like talking about stuff like that

1841
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:08,800
after seeing it like at all

1842
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:10,560
like i would rather just spend time with

1843
01:11:23,430 --> 01:11:17,350
well also because so if you're talking

1844
01:11:26,229 --> 01:11:24,709
you know like maybe you go out to the

1845
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:26,239
movie and then you go to dinner or

1846
01:11:31,030 --> 01:11:28,400
something afterward and i haven't had

1847
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:31,040
time to sit with the movie yet i haven't

1848
01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:33,280
really absorbed it yet if it's good i'm

1849
01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:34,880
gonna be

1850
01:11:43,030 --> 01:11:40,480
several days afterward and

1851
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:44,709
what i would tell you a month from now

1852
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:46,239
about this movie is different from what

1853
01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:48,400
i would tell you now and maybe it's just

1854
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:50,560
my personality i mean i'm not saying

1855
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,480
that it's objectively wrong to talk to

1856
01:11:59,590 --> 01:11:54,480
your friend about the movie but

1857
01:12:04,070 --> 01:12:02,149
yet again it feels a little bit

1858
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:04,080
like i the word that came to mind is

1859
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:06,080
profane i i don't think that's quite the

1860
01:12:08,950 --> 01:12:07,760
right word but you know i don't mean

1861
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:08,960
that in like

1862
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:11,040
the modern sense of like the

1863
01:12:16,550 --> 01:12:14,400
expletives i mean it in like the monks

1864
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:16,560
something blasphemous about it a little

1865
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:18,880
bit or not not even quite blasphemous

1866
01:12:24,149 --> 01:12:20,800
but just just

1867
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:24,159
spoiling something a little bit sacred

1868
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:26,719
by just messing it up

1869
01:12:29,830 --> 01:12:28,800
um like be smurching it

1870
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:29,840
yes

1871
01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:31,440
that's how i feel about it and that's

1872
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:33,440
just my personal

1873
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:36,480
thing and so i just don't like it

1874
01:12:40,310 --> 01:12:38,480
at all do you like hearing about what

1875
01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:40,320
other people think or you want to sit

1876
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:42,400
alone with your thoughts well do you

1877
01:12:45,590 --> 01:12:43,520
mean about

1878
01:12:47,510 --> 01:12:45,600
so about movies or video games or any

1879
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:47,520
piece of art that you experience

1880
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:48,480
um

1881
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,910
let me tell you the reason i'm asking

1882
01:13:01,830 --> 01:13:00,000
well for one i want to know for myself

1883
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:01,840
is it necessarily good that i like to

1884
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:04,080
talk about movies and video games with

1885
01:13:07,830 --> 01:13:06,000
other people or read about other

1886
01:13:10,070 --> 01:13:07,840
people's commentaries such as video game

1887
01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:10,080
reviews so one is a personal question

1888
01:13:14,870 --> 01:13:12,320
and then the second is i'm curious about

1889
01:13:17,110 --> 01:13:14,880
how you view other people talking about

1890
01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:17,120
your games do you not like the way they

1891
01:13:19,590 --> 01:13:18,080
talk about them do you think they

1892
01:13:21,189 --> 01:13:19,600
shouldn't and so on so that's my hidden

1893
01:13:22,390 --> 01:13:21,199
motivation

1894
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:22,400
yeah i mean

1895
01:13:25,590 --> 01:13:24,000
those are

1896
01:13:26,709 --> 01:13:25,600
two different things

1897
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:26,719
right

1898
01:13:34,790 --> 01:13:33,030
let's talk about the general video game

1899
01:13:37,430 --> 01:13:34,800
discourse one first

1900
01:13:39,189 --> 01:13:37,440
and i did used to

1901
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:39,199
back in the 90s when i first got into

1902
01:13:43,590 --> 01:13:42,480
games i used to read game reviews a lot

1903
01:13:46,310 --> 01:13:43,600
um

1904
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:46,320
and stuff like that but i wasn't really

1905
01:13:49,270 --> 01:13:48,000
approaching them

1906
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:49,280
with an

1907
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:51,120
eye to them

1908
01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:52,960
being a very serious art form in the way

1909
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:55,120
that i am now that's like

1910
01:14:04,709 --> 01:14:02,149
probably in the early 2000s like 2002

1911
01:14:07,750 --> 01:14:04,719
2004

1912
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:07,760
um and in in some way

1913
01:14:12,950 --> 01:14:10,400
it was that attitude from when i was a

1914
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:12,960
little younger coming back and finding a

1915
01:14:18,070 --> 01:14:16,320
home i would say in

1916
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,080
my way of doing video game stuff it was

1917
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:20,400
like oh i see what there is about this

1918
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:21,600
pursuit

1919
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:22,560
that

1920
01:14:29,110 --> 01:14:28,159
work very hard i can do a good job with

1921
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:29,120
right

1922
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:30,239
so

1923
01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:37,440
i became more serious but but prior to

1924
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:38,560
that point

1925
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:40,800
i was just learning about games more

1926
01:14:45,669 --> 01:14:43,040
right and and i was absorbed in this

1927
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:45,679
popular discourse and so forth right

1928
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:48,320
but at some point

1929
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,560
i knew enough about them and had thought

1930
01:14:54,310 --> 01:14:52,800
hard enough about them and had developed

1931
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:54,320
my own

1932
01:15:00,070 --> 01:14:56,880
angle on them enough that

1933
01:15:02,470 --> 01:15:00,080
i don't find the popular discourse very

1934
01:15:05,110 --> 01:15:02,480
satisfying or interesting at all at this

1935
01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:05,120
point and i think there's a lot one of

1936
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:07,360
those is maybe just

1937
01:15:11,990 --> 01:15:10,000
being older right like after you've had

1938
01:15:13,910 --> 01:15:12,000
so many decades of

1939
01:15:16,229 --> 01:15:13,920
talking about something

1940
01:15:18,229 --> 01:15:16,239
well somebody else who's many decades

1941
01:15:19,990 --> 01:15:18,239
earlier in that process of talking about

1942
01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:20,000
the things just is

1943
01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:22,560
that much earlier in maybe the same

1944
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:25,760
process right and so

1945
01:15:29,750 --> 01:15:27,520
is there that much reason for me to be

1946
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:29,760
in that conversation not not really

1947
01:15:32,390 --> 01:15:30,719
right

1948
01:15:33,990 --> 01:15:32,400
um

1949
01:15:35,110 --> 01:15:34,000
but secondly

1950
01:15:37,590 --> 01:15:35,120
like i have

1951
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:37,600
you know this way of talking about games

1952
01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:41,120
and using them as ways of reflecting

1953
01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:42,800
the universe in

1954
01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:44,560
in particular ways

1955
01:15:50,229 --> 01:15:47,840
is not a very popular way to view video

1956
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:50,239
games very few people

1957
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:52,400
in the world see them that way

1958
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:55,920
and the ones who do

1959
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,679
might well describe what they do in very

1960
01:16:00,870 --> 01:15:59,520
different terms than i describe to you

1961
01:16:02,390 --> 01:16:00,880
and think about them in very different

1962
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:02,400
terms right so

1963
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:04,880
um it's kind of lonely territory and

1964
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:07,199
when you live in lonely territory

1965
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:08,960
um

1966
01:16:12,870 --> 01:16:10,560
you just see what other think people are

1967
01:16:15,270 --> 01:16:12,880
talking about and it's like well that

1968
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:15,280
doesn't have much to do with me that's

1969
01:16:22,470 --> 01:16:19,040
not like i you know the people who

1970
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:22,480
make a game like you know

1971
01:16:27,030 --> 01:16:24,320
call of duty whatever the new one is

1972
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:27,040
that came out right um

1973
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:29,040
like that's a video game

1974
01:16:32,790 --> 01:16:30,400
and it does even have some of the

1975
01:16:34,870 --> 01:16:32,800
properties that what i was talking about

1976
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:34,880
but the company that makes that is in a

1977
01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:37,120
totally different business than i am and

1978
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:38,960
the people who play that game

1979
01:16:42,630 --> 01:16:41,520
are in to some degree a different

1980
01:16:44,070 --> 01:16:42,640
business

1981
01:16:46,070 --> 01:16:44,080
than the people who play the kinds of

1982
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:46,080
games that i make right not completely

1983
01:16:49,510 --> 01:16:47,760
right like people can go back and forth

1984
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:49,520
and play both but they play them for

1985
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:52,640
different reasons and

1986
01:16:56,870 --> 01:16:54,159
the the difference between those reasons

1987
01:16:58,390 --> 01:16:56,880
is pretty far and so these days

1988
01:17:00,229 --> 01:16:58,400
i do not

1989
01:17:02,630 --> 01:17:00,239
really pay much attention to what people

1990
01:17:04,390 --> 01:17:02,640
say about games even though when i was

1991
01:17:07,990 --> 01:17:04,400
much younger i did and that was

1992
01:17:11,350 --> 01:17:08,000
important in learning i think

1993
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,360
now when it comes to my own stuff

1994
01:17:15,430 --> 01:17:13,440
i'm just not really

1995
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:15,440
interested at all in fact it's a little

1996
01:17:19,350 --> 01:17:17,040
bit painful and the reason it's a little

1997
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:19,360
bit painful is taking the example of the

1998
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:21,600
witness um you know i worked hard on

1999
01:17:25,110 --> 01:17:24,080
that for six and a half years

2000
01:17:27,910 --> 01:17:25,120
right

2001
01:17:30,470 --> 01:17:27,920
and even someone who's smart and like a

2002
01:17:33,270 --> 01:17:30,480
good game reviewer or something who

2003
01:17:34,630 --> 01:17:33,280
comes along and plays the game seriously

2004
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:34,640
for two weeks

2005
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:36,080
and pretty much

2006
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:37,600
plays most of it i mean that's such a

2007
01:17:43,590 --> 01:17:38,960
big game that very few people have

2008
01:17:48,750 --> 01:17:46,310
they have two weeks of experience with

2009
01:17:51,110 --> 01:17:48,760
something that i have

2010
01:17:52,790 --> 01:17:51,120
330 weeks

2011
01:17:58,149 --> 01:17:52,800
thinking about right

2012
01:17:58,159 --> 01:18:02,149
you just can't

2013
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:04,790
well and

2014
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:06,960
you know lots of skin in the game and

2015
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:09,520
like blood and sweat and the person

2016
01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:11,040
writing the review doesn't this is just

2017
01:18:16,310 --> 01:18:13,920
another game that they're they've played

2018
01:18:19,110 --> 01:18:16,320
along with all the others they have very

2019
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:19,120
little skin in the game and so

2020
01:18:24,830 --> 01:18:21,920
it's this big asymmetry and it makes

2021
01:18:28,390 --> 01:18:24,840
things very uncomfortable

2022
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,400
um and

2023
01:18:32,709 --> 01:18:30,400
for me i don't i don't really want to

2024
01:18:36,390 --> 01:18:32,719
read it you know um

2025
01:18:42,470 --> 01:18:38,709
it doesn't really

2026
01:18:43,270 --> 01:18:42,480
you know

2027
01:18:44,550 --> 01:18:43,280
um

2028
01:18:46,709 --> 01:18:44,560
it doesn't

2029
01:18:49,510 --> 01:18:46,719
like i i know what's in the witness and

2030
01:18:53,030 --> 01:18:49,520
i know what's good and i i know what's

2031
01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:53,040
not good about it um but i doubt

2032
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:54,880
i doubt that my assessment of what's not

2033
01:18:58,149 --> 01:18:56,880
good about it is going to agree with

2034
01:18:59,430 --> 01:18:58,159
what most people are going to write on

2035
01:19:01,030 --> 01:18:59,440
the internet

2036
01:19:04,550 --> 01:19:01,040
and so therefore

2037
01:19:06,790 --> 01:19:04,560
if my goal is to progress

2038
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:06,800
i don't necessarily want to

2039
01:19:10,390 --> 01:19:08,880
look that way

2040
01:19:11,830 --> 01:19:10,400
at things

2041
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:11,840
that don't have much to do with where

2042
01:19:14,550 --> 01:19:13,040
i'm going

2043
01:19:16,070 --> 01:19:14,560
right

2044
01:19:17,830 --> 01:19:16,080
so

2045
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:17,840
with the witness i read a small number

2046
01:19:21,990 --> 01:19:20,000
of reviews like on the first day and i

2047
01:19:24,310 --> 01:19:22,000
was like yeah i don't need to do this

2048
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:24,320
this isn't good for me first of all

2049
01:19:34,390 --> 01:19:29,990
it uh

2050
01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:37,910
see where to go for the next thing

2051
01:19:42,310 --> 01:19:39,760
now is it that it doesn't help you at

2052
01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:42,320
all or is it that it's so painful to

2053
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:44,400
look at that it would hinder you and

2054
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:46,159
perhaps even mislead you because what

2055
01:19:50,229 --> 01:19:47,760
are the priorities of the reviewer

2056
01:19:51,430 --> 01:19:50,239
aren't yours there's both there's both

2057
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:51,440
right so

2058
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,880
you know there's all kinds of reviews

2059
01:19:55,669 --> 01:19:54,239
one kind of review is a commercial

2060
01:19:57,110 --> 01:19:55,679
product review

2061
01:19:58,390 --> 01:19:57,120
that's useless to me because i'm not

2062
01:20:00,149 --> 01:19:58,400
making commercial products i

2063
01:20:02,229 --> 01:20:00,159
intentionally make my games less fun

2064
01:20:04,790 --> 01:20:02,239
than they could be quote fun unquote

2065
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:04,800
right um in order to support other

2066
01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:06,719
aspects of them and so if somebody says

2067
01:20:11,350 --> 01:20:09,920
this game isn't as fun as i wish it was

2068
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:11,360
i'm like i know

2069
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:17,030
that's the choice i made when i decide

2070
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:18,880
you know this isn't avengers infinity

2071
01:20:23,430 --> 01:20:21,600
war right um yeah i get that

2072
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:23,440
so

2073
01:20:26,470 --> 01:20:25,199
that's one aspect of it now the other

2074
01:20:28,629 --> 01:20:26,480
aspect of it that you mentioned is

2075
01:20:30,870 --> 01:20:28,639
pretty interesting like there is

2076
01:20:34,149 --> 01:20:30,880
like if i work hard on something for six

2077
01:20:35,830 --> 01:20:34,159
and a half years and either people

2078
01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:35,840
dislike it because it's not a commercial

2079
01:20:41,830 --> 01:20:39,040
product or they dislike it because

2080
01:20:43,270 --> 01:20:41,840
it doesn't conform to their idea of what

2081
01:20:45,590 --> 01:20:43,280
the art scene

2082
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:45,600
in games should be doing right now or

2083
01:20:48,629 --> 01:20:47,040
they just dislike it because they had a

2084
01:20:50,310 --> 01:20:48,639
bad time and it wasn't for them which is

2085
01:20:51,350 --> 01:20:50,320
totally fine right things that i make

2086
01:20:54,229 --> 01:20:51,360
are not

2087
01:20:57,669 --> 01:20:54,239
i don't try to make things for everybody

2088
01:21:02,390 --> 01:21:00,470
there is that aspect of like

2089
01:21:04,070 --> 01:21:02,400
personal pain sometimes like when you

2090
01:21:05,990 --> 01:21:04,080
when you work on something so hard and

2091
01:21:08,149 --> 01:21:06,000
you care about it so much

2092
01:21:10,709 --> 01:21:08,159
and somebody thinks it's

2093
01:21:13,430 --> 01:21:10,719
terrible or you just whatever they say

2094
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:13,440
mean things about it um

2095
01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:15,360
even if i know intellectually that that

2096
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:17,440
person is wrong

2097
01:21:22,950 --> 01:21:19,360
and has no standing to be saying these

2098
01:21:25,669 --> 01:21:22,960
things there's you know something about

2099
01:21:26,950 --> 01:21:25,679
the human organism reacting that makes

2100
01:21:29,669 --> 01:21:26,960
it

2101
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:29,679
to do

2102
01:21:34,950 --> 01:21:31,600
more things

2103
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:34,960
that could cause criticism right

2104
01:21:38,709 --> 01:21:37,679
and i don't want to be encumbered by

2105
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:38,719
that

2106
01:21:43,669 --> 01:21:42,480
flinching away from

2107
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:43,679
um

2108
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:45,679
whatever right because the next things

2109
01:21:48,709 --> 01:21:47,920
that i do

2110
01:21:53,830 --> 01:21:48,719
um

2111
01:21:57,030 --> 01:21:53,840
about what i choose to do but i'm trying

2112
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:57,040
hard to make them the

2113
01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:58,880
the best most interesting most important

2114
01:22:03,910 --> 01:22:00,960
things that i know how to do

2115
01:22:07,430 --> 01:22:03,920
and that job is already hard before i

2116
01:22:09,350 --> 01:22:07,440
make it more hard by

2117
01:22:11,510 --> 01:22:09,360
you know

2118
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,520
being hesitant because i felt burned

2119
01:22:14,870 --> 01:22:13,199
because people didn't like something i

2120
01:22:15,750 --> 01:22:14,880
did or whatever right

2121
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:15,760
and

2122
01:22:18,950 --> 01:22:17,520
this is especially weird in the internet

2123
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:18,960
age because

2124
01:22:25,110 --> 01:22:23,270
there's just so much more of this kind

2125
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:25,120
of communication and so much more

2126
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:27,520
amplification and it's just a well

2127
01:22:31,750 --> 01:22:29,440
understood phenomenon that the negative

2128
01:22:32,950 --> 01:22:31,760
stuff stings more than the positive

2129
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:32,960
stuff

2130
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,040
helps you right

2131
01:22:41,510 --> 01:22:39,189
like i've heard lots of

2132
01:22:42,629 --> 01:22:41,520
lots of positive feedback

2133
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:42,639
from

2134
01:22:47,189 --> 01:22:44,880
people who

2135
01:22:49,910 --> 01:22:47,199
you know these games that i've made that

2136
01:22:52,950 --> 01:22:49,920
were very meaningful to them and very

2137
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:52,960
helpful to them and

2138
01:22:57,350 --> 01:22:55,440
or inspiring or gave them ideas about

2139
01:22:59,110 --> 01:22:57,360
about things all sorts of positive

2140
01:23:02,229 --> 01:22:59,120
things that you could name and those

2141
01:23:06,229 --> 01:23:03,430
all

2142
01:23:08,229 --> 01:23:06,239
certainly make it worth doing this stuff

2143
01:23:09,350 --> 01:23:08,239
but i still mostly remember the negative

2144
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:09,360
stuff right

2145
01:23:14,390 --> 01:23:11,280
and that's just part of that is that

2146
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:14,400
that's my job too like when i work on

2147
01:23:17,270 --> 01:23:15,360
something

2148
01:23:18,870 --> 01:23:17,280
um

2149
01:23:21,110 --> 01:23:18,880
going back to that conversation about

2150
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:21,120
braid that we had before about

2151
01:23:24,550 --> 01:23:23,040
trying to find

2152
01:23:26,390 --> 01:23:24,560
the best

2153
01:23:27,990 --> 01:23:26,400
forms for certain pieces of the

2154
01:23:31,510 --> 01:23:28,000
expression

2155
01:23:34,149 --> 01:23:31,520
to take in order for it to

2156
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:34,159
build into this rightly made larger

2157
01:23:37,830 --> 01:23:35,040
thing

2158
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:37,840
that's hard and it involves actually

2159
01:23:42,870 --> 01:23:40,480
exercising acute judgment

2160
01:23:46,629 --> 01:23:44,790
the developing work

2161
01:23:48,390 --> 01:23:46,639
for years

2162
01:23:50,310 --> 01:23:48,400
and on ideas that come up that maybe

2163
01:23:52,149 --> 01:23:50,320
never make it in or whatever like oh

2164
01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:52,159
that's a stupid idea because it doesn't

2165
01:23:58,310 --> 01:23:55,280
do this and it doesn't do that etc right

2166
01:23:59,510 --> 01:23:58,320
um and my my personal critical voice is

2167
01:24:01,030 --> 01:23:59,520
actually

2168
01:24:02,709 --> 01:24:01,040
uh very

2169
01:24:05,030 --> 01:24:02,719
direct and

2170
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:05,040
very uncompromising

2171
01:24:09,189 --> 01:24:07,040
um sorry your personal critical voice

2172
01:24:10,950 --> 01:24:09,199
toward yourself

2173
01:24:12,550 --> 01:24:10,960
yeah like when i look at something i'm

2174
01:24:13,830 --> 01:24:12,560
working on and like what do i think of

2175
01:24:15,750 --> 01:24:13,840
it right

2176
01:24:18,070 --> 01:24:15,760
and it's not it's not mean

2177
01:24:20,229 --> 01:24:18,080
it's not unnecessarily harsh it's just

2178
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:20,239
like look here are the deficiencies of

2179
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:22,080
this thing here are the things i wish

2180
01:24:29,110 --> 01:24:27,270
if you're going to make something good

2181
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:29,120
you have to spend most of your time

2182
01:24:33,110 --> 01:24:31,120
thinking about those things

2183
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:33,120
because

2184
01:24:36,709 --> 01:24:34,960
fixing those things is what makes the

2185
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:36,719
thing better right

2186
01:24:39,430 --> 01:24:37,760
now

2187
01:24:41,030 --> 01:24:39,440
especially the longer you get into

2188
01:24:43,030 --> 01:24:41,040
development of something

2189
01:24:45,430 --> 01:24:43,040
complicated like this there's all sorts

2190
01:24:47,830 --> 01:24:45,440
of great things about it

2191
01:24:49,270 --> 01:24:47,840
that we succeeded at but if i just sit

2192
01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:49,280
there and spend most of my time

2193
01:24:52,310 --> 01:24:51,040
reflecting on all the great things about

2194
01:24:54,390 --> 01:24:52,320
it it's not really getting better

2195
01:24:56,830 --> 01:24:54,400
because we're not working on the things

2196
01:25:03,430 --> 01:24:56,840
holding it back right and

2197
01:25:07,430 --> 01:25:05,270
sometimes like

2198
01:25:09,750 --> 01:25:07,440
judgment gets a bad rap

2199
01:25:11,350 --> 01:25:09,760
you know like people think being

2200
01:25:13,430 --> 01:25:11,360
judgmental is bad and i think there are

2201
01:25:15,270 --> 01:25:13,440
certain kinds of judgmental that are

2202
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:15,280
probably

2203
01:25:18,550 --> 01:25:16,480
you know

2204
01:25:20,390 --> 01:25:18,560
not good like being overly judgmental

2205
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,400
about other people

2206
01:25:23,669 --> 01:25:22,560
when you don't know anything about them

2207
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:23,679
right

2208
01:25:26,709 --> 01:25:24,480
um

2209
01:25:29,350 --> 01:25:26,719
but but judgment actually if you're

2210
01:25:31,590 --> 01:25:29,360
trying to build something

2211
01:25:32,470 --> 01:25:31,600
um

2212
01:25:34,149 --> 01:25:32,480
that

2213
01:25:36,950 --> 01:25:34,159
is very complicated and very hard to

2214
01:25:38,550 --> 01:25:36,960
make then judgment is actually very

2215
01:25:40,390 --> 01:25:38,560
important and very useful and actually

2216
01:25:42,550 --> 01:25:40,400
gives you a positive outlet

2217
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:42,560
for that part of your mind and then

2218
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:44,400
maybe it doesn't need

2219
01:25:49,669 --> 01:25:47,199
negative or less less productive outlets

2220
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:49,679
anymore right

2221
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:51,840
i hope

2222
01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:53,520
let's get back to that witness puzzle

2223
01:25:56,629 --> 01:25:54,560
question

2224
01:25:58,310 --> 01:25:56,639
about how is it that those tetris pieces

2225
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:58,320
relate to the larger aspects of the

2226
01:26:03,590 --> 01:26:00,960
witness oh i forgot we left that

2227
01:26:04,950 --> 01:26:03,600
several a while ago in the discussion

2228
01:26:06,870 --> 01:26:04,960
when you were putting that together in a

2229
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:06,880
similar way that you would

2230
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:09,120
weigh several factors with regard to the

2231
01:26:13,350 --> 01:26:11,440
ring in braid what are you

2232
01:26:14,229 --> 01:26:13,360
using to come up with okay let's use

2233
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:14,239
these

2234
01:26:17,750 --> 01:26:15,760
let's come up with a puzzle that looks

2235
01:26:19,910 --> 01:26:17,760
like so and so in braid and witness

2236
01:26:23,830 --> 01:26:19,920
specifically tetris pieces it was pretty

2237
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:25,189
the goals of the witness are pretty

2238
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:34,470
what i was trying to do there

2239
01:26:38,790 --> 01:26:35,590
i wanted

2240
01:26:42,070 --> 01:26:38,800
a system of puzzles where

2241
01:26:44,070 --> 01:26:42,080
you start out early in the game

2242
01:26:44,950 --> 01:26:44,080
and you don't know what they mean at all

2243
01:26:47,030 --> 01:26:44,960
right

2244
01:26:49,110 --> 01:26:47,040
and then eventually you figure out what

2245
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:49,120
they mean without having any verbal

2246
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:51,520
instruction right that was important and

2247
01:26:54,950 --> 01:26:53,520
so there is communication that's

2248
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:54,960
happening through the game but it's

2249
01:27:01,270 --> 01:26:58,000
happening in this non-verbal way

2250
01:27:04,950 --> 01:27:02,950
and then

2251
01:27:06,629 --> 01:27:04,960
i wanted there to be a way

2252
01:27:09,669 --> 01:27:06,639
for these puzzles

2253
01:27:12,550 --> 01:27:09,679
to for the theme or the idea of each

2254
01:27:15,669 --> 01:27:12,560
puzzle to interact with each other and

2255
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:15,679
create combinatoric surprise

2256
01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:18,000
uh and delight of of two different kinds

2257
01:27:22,229 --> 01:27:20,000
one like oh that's interesting what

2258
01:27:24,709 --> 01:27:22,239
happens when i see this kind of thing

2259
01:27:26,950 --> 01:27:24,719
together with this kind of thing it

2260
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:26,960
makes this new

2261
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:28,080
uh

2262
01:27:31,990 --> 01:27:29,600
it makes me have to think about it in a

2263
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:32,000
way that i didn't have to yet right and

2264
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,229
you can use

2265
01:27:43,350 --> 01:27:41,350
the other types of of puzzles

2266
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:43,360
to

2267
01:27:48,709 --> 01:27:46,960
build surprises like hey you think you

2268
01:27:50,070 --> 01:27:48,719
understand this one completely and how

2269
01:27:51,350 --> 01:27:50,080
it all works

2270
01:27:53,830 --> 01:27:51,360
but

2271
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:53,840
actually

2272
01:27:58,229 --> 01:27:56,239
when interacting with this other thing

2273
01:27:59,990 --> 01:27:58,239
certain things become important or

2274
01:28:01,590 --> 01:28:00,000
salient that weren't before that you

2275
01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:01,600
didn't have to think about

2276
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:04,560
and you realize that there's details to

2277
01:28:08,470 --> 01:28:06,400
the way things worked

2278
01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:08,480
that you didn't understand or or that

2279
01:28:11,350 --> 01:28:09,760
you assumed but they're actually

2280
01:28:14,149 --> 01:28:11,360
different from what you assumed right

2281
01:28:21,030 --> 01:28:14,159
and and so that's the broad canvas

2282
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:28,629
specifically with those

2283
01:28:28,639 --> 01:28:31,830
i was trying to do

2284
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:40,470
something where

2285
01:28:43,669 --> 01:28:41,750
so the kind of puzzles you're talking

2286
01:28:45,510 --> 01:28:43,679
about they're they're all about

2287
01:28:48,550 --> 01:28:45,520
relatively abstract

2288
01:28:49,830 --> 01:28:48,560
concepts because they take place on

2289
01:28:51,590 --> 01:28:49,840
you know on these little idealized

2290
01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:51,600
puzzle boards you walk around this world

2291
01:28:55,189 --> 01:28:53,760
that has you know trees and buildings in

2292
01:28:57,430 --> 01:28:55,199
it and stuff but then you walk up to a

2293
01:29:00,310 --> 01:28:57,440
little puzzle board and you do it and on

2294
01:29:02,390 --> 01:29:00,320
that puzzle board there's things like

2295
01:29:04,229 --> 01:29:02,400
well there's little dots and you know

2296
01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:04,239
it's not much of a spoiler but like you

2297
01:29:07,590 --> 01:29:06,320
have to draw the line through the dots

2298
01:29:10,310 --> 01:29:07,600
right or

2299
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:10,320
there's different um

2300
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:11,840
there's different colors of things and

2301
01:29:16,390 --> 01:29:13,600
oh these ones you have to separate from

2302
01:29:18,229 --> 01:29:16,400
each other right so there's

2303
01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:18,239
and and the question was like what are

2304
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:20,800
different relations of space that we can

2305
01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:24,480
play with which going back to this idea

2306
01:29:29,350 --> 01:29:25,920
about

2307
01:29:30,790 --> 01:29:29,360
reflecting the universe it's like okay

2308
01:29:33,669 --> 01:29:30,800
even

2309
01:29:35,110 --> 01:29:33,679
this simple idealized notion of space

2310
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:35,120
like you have in these little puzzle

2311
01:29:39,990 --> 01:29:38,560
grids what are the kinds of things

2312
01:29:41,590 --> 01:29:40,000
that we can do

2313
01:29:44,709 --> 01:29:41,600
that like

2314
01:29:48,070 --> 01:29:44,719
what is suggested by

2315
01:29:50,070 --> 01:29:48,080
this idea of space and what what kind of

2316
01:29:51,030 --> 01:29:50,080
interplay can we have

2317
01:29:52,790 --> 01:29:51,040
in that

2318
01:29:55,830 --> 01:29:52,800
domain and so

2319
01:29:59,510 --> 01:29:57,510
with this puzzle area that you're

2320
01:30:01,830 --> 01:29:59,520
talking about

2321
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:01,840
um

2322
01:30:05,669 --> 01:30:04,080
you know i'd had the idea of

2323
01:30:06,390 --> 01:30:05,679
separating things

2324
01:30:08,070 --> 01:30:06,400
so

2325
01:30:12,390 --> 01:30:08,080
this one was

2326
01:30:16,790 --> 01:30:15,430
sort of combining things

2327
01:30:18,310 --> 01:30:16,800
but in a different there's there's a

2328
01:30:21,510 --> 01:30:18,320
different thing that's about combining

2329
01:30:23,270 --> 01:30:21,520
things in a different way right

2330
01:30:25,510 --> 01:30:23,280
and

2331
01:30:27,990 --> 01:30:25,520
the question was

2332
01:30:32,870 --> 01:30:28,000
just how to

2333
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:36,709
and it was just easier

2334
01:30:41,510 --> 01:30:38,950
in the game broadly you know these

2335
01:30:43,430 --> 01:30:41,520
panels you can just have arbitrarily

2336
01:30:45,270 --> 01:30:43,440
shaped things on them but in that area i

2337
01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:45,280
kept it to grids because

2338
01:30:52,229 --> 01:30:47,360
it's just easier to

2339
01:30:55,669 --> 01:30:53,510
because well

2340
01:31:00,629 --> 01:30:55,679
so again going back to math and physics

2341
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:02,790
a grid is actually very

2342
01:31:07,669 --> 01:31:06,000
natural in a certain way right because

2343
01:31:09,270 --> 01:31:07,679
you have

2344
01:31:11,990 --> 01:31:09,280
when something is two-dimensional that

2345
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:12,000
means there are exactly two directions

2346
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:14,159
where going in one of those directions

2347
01:31:18,550 --> 01:31:15,440
means you're not going in the other

2348
01:31:20,229 --> 01:31:18,560
direction at all right there they're

2349
01:31:22,229 --> 01:31:20,239
perpendicular to each other is what we

2350
01:31:24,790 --> 01:31:22,239
call that in 2d or orthogonal in higher

2351
01:31:25,990 --> 01:31:24,800
dimensions right and so

2352
01:31:29,110 --> 01:31:26,000
um

2353
01:31:30,950 --> 01:31:29,120
like a regular grid is in some sense the

2354
01:31:33,350 --> 01:31:30,960
simplest way to divide

2355
01:31:35,350 --> 01:31:33,360
a two-dimensional space i mean certainly

2356
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:35,360
if it's a euclidean space right

2357
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:37,520
so

2358
01:31:40,149 --> 01:31:38,320
um

2359
01:31:42,229 --> 01:31:40,159
that that was just that it was about

2360
01:31:44,790 --> 01:31:42,239
playing with this idea and so the fact

2361
01:31:46,310 --> 01:31:44,800
that um

2362
01:31:48,950 --> 01:31:46,320
the fact that they're shaped like

2363
01:31:50,950 --> 01:31:48,960
irregular pieces

2364
01:31:53,510 --> 01:31:50,960
was just a way to give more

2365
01:31:55,669 --> 01:31:53,520
possibilities and more grit

2366
01:31:57,510 --> 01:31:55,679
to that there is of course a little bit

2367
01:32:00,470 --> 01:31:57,520
of a mental callback to earlier video

2368
01:32:02,709 --> 01:32:00,480
games like tetris right but but that's

2369
01:32:06,870 --> 01:32:02,719
like secondary or tertiary right you

2370
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:09,830
fairly blatant reference

2371
01:32:17,590 --> 01:32:16,070
there's one puzzle that i think of is

2372
01:32:19,590 --> 01:32:17,600
having more to do with tetris but

2373
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:19,600
probably players don't really

2374
01:32:23,510 --> 01:32:21,280
in reality so

2375
01:32:24,950 --> 01:32:23,520
maybe it's not worth talking about um

2376
01:32:29,430 --> 01:32:24,960
but

2377
01:32:34,629 --> 01:32:31,750
had very little of a fictional element

2378
01:32:36,550 --> 01:32:34,639
to it right and just much more of a

2379
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:36,560
part of constructing this system of

2380
01:32:41,750 --> 01:32:37,840
interacting

2381
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:41,760
ideas okay now practically speaking i

2382
01:32:46,149 --> 01:32:43,760
may get into your creative process here

2383
01:32:49,430 --> 01:32:46,159
but do you have a google doc with bullet

2384
01:32:51,430 --> 01:32:49,440
points of all the different types of

2385
01:32:53,750 --> 01:32:51,440
puzzle elements like let's say this one

2386
01:32:55,590 --> 01:32:53,760
was shape delineation then another one

2387
01:32:57,669 --> 01:32:55,600
with apple tree is something like visual

2388
01:32:59,990 --> 01:32:57,679
environmental clue yeah and then another

2389
01:33:01,830 --> 01:33:00,000
one may be audio discernment with the

2390
01:33:03,750 --> 01:33:01,840
birds chirping so then do you have

2391
01:33:05,750 --> 01:33:03,760
spoilers everybody

2392
01:33:06,709 --> 01:33:05,760
so then do you have massive spoilers are

2393
01:33:09,990 --> 01:33:06,719
happening

2394
01:33:11,590 --> 01:33:10,000
so do you have a google doc of a or

2395
01:33:13,189 --> 01:33:11,600
whatever doc of a bullet point of these

2396
01:33:14,709 --> 01:33:13,199
are the types of puzzle elements now as

2397
01:33:16,149 --> 01:33:14,719
i progress through the story i would

2398
01:33:17,990 --> 01:33:16,159
like to include more and more of these

2399
01:33:19,669 --> 01:33:18,000
simultaneously or does that happen

2400
01:33:21,750 --> 01:33:19,679
unconsciously or do you not even care if

2401
01:33:23,910 --> 01:33:21,760
that happens

2402
01:33:25,750 --> 01:33:23,920
it's different depending on where

2403
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:25,760
you are building the thing right in the

2404
01:33:30,550 --> 01:33:28,159
beginning i'm just like i want to find

2405
01:33:32,950 --> 01:33:30,560
enough ideas that even

2406
01:33:35,510 --> 01:33:32,960
are interesting at all right

2407
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,709
and then

2408
01:33:44,950 --> 01:33:41,510
um like putting things in in a

2409
01:33:46,229 --> 01:33:44,960
spreadsheet or something is not a very

2410
01:33:47,830 --> 01:33:46,239
um

2411
01:33:49,750 --> 01:33:47,840
i mean it helps you list them and

2412
01:33:52,070 --> 01:33:49,760
remember what they are but the thing is

2413
01:33:54,390 --> 01:33:52,080
in games um

2414
01:33:55,990 --> 01:33:54,400
it's much better to just build a very

2415
01:33:58,550 --> 01:33:56,000
early version of the game and so that's

2416
01:34:00,310 --> 01:33:58,560
what i did like from the very i would

2417
01:34:02,390 --> 01:34:00,320
say week

2418
01:34:04,149 --> 01:34:02,400
probably week two or three of

2419
01:34:06,070 --> 01:34:04,159
development of the six and a half year

2420
01:34:07,510 --> 01:34:06,080
project i had some version of the game

2421
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:07,520
where you could walk around and it was

2422
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:08,800
really ugly

2423
01:34:12,310 --> 01:34:10,320
not much to look at

2424
01:34:14,470 --> 01:34:12,320
not much there but then if i made new

2425
01:34:16,229 --> 01:34:14,480
puzzles i could just put them there i

2426
01:34:17,590 --> 01:34:16,239
could program them first of all and then

2427
01:34:19,350 --> 01:34:17,600
put them there

2428
01:34:21,430 --> 01:34:19,360
by programming them you see how they

2429
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:21,440
actually behave and whether there are

2430
01:34:26,229 --> 01:34:24,719
ideas in there that you didn't think of

2431
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:26,239
right whereas if it's just written in a

2432
01:34:33,669 --> 01:34:31,270
it's not doing anything so you can't see

2433
01:34:35,430 --> 01:34:33,679
what it does right and so that was the

2434
01:34:37,830 --> 01:34:35,440
development process was program new

2435
01:34:42,229 --> 01:34:37,840
puzzles put them in the world if i

2436
01:34:47,430 --> 01:34:43,830
where

2437
01:34:48,950 --> 01:34:47,440
of throw them on the map there and we

2438
01:34:50,790 --> 01:34:48,960
would put walls around it or something

2439
01:34:53,990 --> 01:34:50,800
and figure it out later

2440
01:34:55,510 --> 01:34:54,000
actually i think it's still up

2441
01:34:58,229 --> 01:34:55,520
we have a

2442
01:34:59,590 --> 01:34:58,239
blog that we were doing that whole time

2443
01:35:01,270 --> 01:34:59,600
and it shows

2444
01:35:02,310 --> 01:35:01,280
you can see screenshots of what the game

2445
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:02,320
looked like

2446
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:04,800
in this state when it was like very

2447
01:35:09,350 --> 01:35:06,960
plain and ugly and just i believe i was

2448
01:35:10,870 --> 01:35:09,360
following it back then okay

2449
01:35:13,270 --> 01:35:10,880
yeah so

2450
01:35:16,229 --> 01:35:13,280
um that was really the primary method of

2451
01:35:18,470 --> 01:35:16,239
organization of the game really

2452
01:35:20,870 --> 01:35:18,480
you know probably the art team when they

2453
01:35:22,950 --> 01:35:20,880
were working on stuff had probably some

2454
01:35:25,109 --> 01:35:22,960
spreadsheets and stuff about who

2455
01:35:25,830 --> 01:35:25,119
was going to work on what when

2456
01:35:29,030 --> 01:35:25,840
but

2457
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:29,040
the overall ideas of the game it was

2458
01:35:33,109 --> 01:35:31,440
just there in the game

2459
01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:33,119
and that's still true with with what we

2460
01:35:36,870 --> 01:35:34,719
work on now

2461
01:35:37,830 --> 01:35:36,880
why was it being non-verbal so important

2462
01:35:39,270 --> 01:35:37,840
to you

2463
01:35:41,830 --> 01:35:39,280
this is something like in filmmaking

2464
01:35:43,590 --> 01:35:41,840
there's that is don't tell but show is

2465
01:35:46,149 --> 01:35:43,600
it somehow more pure

2466
01:35:49,030 --> 01:35:46,159
or less pure if you are direct it's

2467
01:35:50,629 --> 01:35:49,040
probably related to the personality

2468
01:35:52,870 --> 01:35:50,639
aspect that i was telling you about

2469
01:35:55,669 --> 01:35:52,880
before where i don't like to talk about

2470
01:36:00,070 --> 01:35:55,679
some things like um

2471
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:06,310
um

2472
01:36:10,149 --> 01:36:08,550
like speech is very linearizing right

2473
01:36:12,229 --> 01:36:10,159
like it goes whether it's spoken or

2474
01:36:14,149 --> 01:36:12,239
written it goes into a series of words

2475
01:36:16,310 --> 01:36:14,159
that then you listen to

2476
01:36:18,629 --> 01:36:16,320
and rebuild into something non-linear in

2477
01:36:21,189 --> 01:36:18,639
your head right and

2478
01:36:23,510 --> 01:36:21,199
that has a certain bandwidth to it of

2479
01:36:25,189 --> 01:36:23,520
what you how much you can do um it

2480
01:36:27,510 --> 01:36:25,199
actually could be quite high if you and

2481
01:36:29,830 --> 01:36:27,520
the person you're talking to have shared

2482
01:36:31,830 --> 01:36:29,840
assumptions about what things mean then

2483
01:36:33,350 --> 01:36:31,840
words call back to what those things

2484
01:36:35,510 --> 01:36:33,360
mean and help you build an l.a that's

2485
01:36:37,590 --> 01:36:35,520
that's why speech works right

2486
01:36:39,270 --> 01:36:37,600
um

2487
01:36:42,149 --> 01:36:39,280
but if you want to tell people about

2488
01:36:44,310 --> 01:36:42,159
something they don't already know

2489
01:36:45,910 --> 01:36:44,320
the the bandwidth is actually pretty low

2490
01:36:48,550 --> 01:36:45,920
because you don't have

2491
01:36:51,590 --> 01:36:48,560
things to refer back to that are

2492
01:36:53,830 --> 01:36:51,600
uh that are big and rich informationally

2493
01:36:55,669 --> 01:36:53,840
um so that's one thing but secondly i

2494
01:36:57,350 --> 01:36:55,679
was just really interested in this idea

2495
01:36:58,950 --> 01:36:57,360
of nonverbal communication and i wanted

2496
01:37:00,550 --> 01:36:58,960
to see what it could do in the medium of

2497
01:37:01,669 --> 01:37:00,560
games like is this something that games

2498
01:37:04,149 --> 01:37:01,679
can do

2499
01:37:06,550 --> 01:37:04,159
that they have a talent for right

2500
01:37:08,790 --> 01:37:06,560
related to other media and i found that

2501
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:08,800
it seemed to be so

2502
01:37:16,229 --> 01:37:14,390
because in in that game you know

2503
01:37:17,990 --> 01:37:16,239
if somebody gets toward the end of the

2504
01:37:19,510 --> 01:37:18,000
game and they're playing some puzzle

2505
01:37:20,870 --> 01:37:19,520
that they're stuck on it looks

2506
01:37:22,229 --> 01:37:20,880
complicated

2507
01:37:23,590 --> 01:37:22,239
and you ask them what are you trying to

2508
01:37:24,709 --> 01:37:23,600
do tell me everything about what you're

2509
01:37:27,830 --> 01:37:24,719
trying to do if they start trying to

2510
01:37:29,669 --> 01:37:27,840
explain like well you know i'm trying to

2511
01:37:31,109 --> 01:37:29,679
draw this line to go through this thing

2512
01:37:33,350 --> 01:37:31,119
and around this thing but not around

2513
01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:33,360
that thing because with this thing over

2514
01:37:36,550 --> 01:37:35,440
here and if they try to explain to you

2515
01:37:37,910 --> 01:37:36,560
everything that

2516
01:37:38,950 --> 01:37:37,920
that they're trying to do

2517
01:37:41,189 --> 01:37:38,960
um

2518
01:37:42,950 --> 01:37:41,199
it could take five minutes actually for

2519
01:37:45,750 --> 01:37:42,960
for the late game right

2520
01:37:49,189 --> 01:37:47,750
none of that was ever communicated

2521
01:37:51,270 --> 01:37:49,199
verbally ever

2522
01:37:53,669 --> 01:37:51,280
right and and so that's very interesting

2523
01:37:56,709 --> 01:37:53,679
is an interesting study of what could be

2524
01:38:01,189 --> 01:37:56,719
done that way now that said then also

2525
01:38:08,709 --> 01:38:04,229
the

2526
01:38:10,310 --> 01:38:08,719
primarily concerned with was this moment

2527
01:38:12,709 --> 01:38:10,320
of epiphany that i was talking about

2528
01:38:14,629 --> 01:38:12,719
before when you understand something

2529
01:38:15,510 --> 01:38:14,639
that you didn't understand before right

2530
01:38:17,590 --> 01:38:15,520
like

2531
01:38:19,590 --> 01:38:17,600
in a puzzle game when you finally are

2532
01:38:21,430 --> 01:38:19,600
able to solve the puzzle hopefully it's

2533
01:38:22,950 --> 01:38:21,440
not because you did a bunch of brute

2534
01:38:24,629 --> 01:38:22,960
force things and then you finally

2535
01:38:26,790 --> 01:38:24,639
accidentally

2536
01:38:28,149 --> 01:38:26,800
did a thing and it said it's solved

2537
01:38:30,629 --> 01:38:28,159
that's not a very good puzzle right a

2538
01:38:35,030 --> 01:38:30,639
good puzzle is

2539
01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:35,040
you didn't see something now you see it

2540
01:38:38,790 --> 01:38:37,040
and

2541
01:38:39,990 --> 01:38:38,800
now it's very clear

2542
01:38:42,149 --> 01:38:40,000
and

2543
01:38:44,550 --> 01:38:42,159
adds something to your knowledge

2544
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:44,560
and you can use that

2545
01:38:47,750 --> 01:38:46,080
to solve the puzzle and move on to the

2546
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:47,760
next thing right

2547
01:38:52,229 --> 01:38:49,840
so

2548
01:38:54,310 --> 01:38:52,239
i felt like a game that's talking at you

2549
01:38:56,870 --> 01:38:54,320
all the time

2550
01:38:58,470 --> 01:38:56,880
was not very helpful because part of so

2551
01:38:59,910 --> 01:38:58,480
part of what i was trying to do

2552
01:39:02,229 --> 01:38:59,920
was

2553
01:39:03,990 --> 01:39:02,239
okay at a very baseline just give people

2554
01:39:05,510 --> 01:39:04,000
a positive experience that has that kind

2555
01:39:07,590 --> 01:39:05,520
of moment of epiphany in it because

2556
01:39:09,109 --> 01:39:07,600
that's interesting and fun and

2557
01:39:10,950 --> 01:39:09,119
nice for people right

2558
01:39:12,790 --> 01:39:10,960
one level above that

2559
01:39:14,870 --> 01:39:12,800
um

2560
01:39:17,030 --> 01:39:14,880
can we create these moments of epiphany

2561
01:39:19,669 --> 01:39:17,040
from different angles on different

2562
01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:19,679
topics all the time to give people a

2563
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:20,560
sense

2564
01:39:25,590 --> 01:39:22,800
of what all these topics are either

2565
01:39:27,830 --> 01:39:25,600
about space and light and shadow

2566
01:39:30,229 --> 01:39:27,840
and sound or about

2567
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:30,239
abstract notions like you know number

2568
01:39:33,350 --> 01:39:32,159
and group and all these things

2569
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:33,360
um

2570
01:39:37,270 --> 01:39:36,000
can we build an appreciation for that

2571
01:39:41,430 --> 01:39:37,280
right

2572
01:39:43,270 --> 01:39:41,440
and then maybe one level above that is

2573
01:39:45,510 --> 01:39:43,280
can we exercise

2574
01:39:48,709 --> 01:39:45,520
people's feeling of epiphany in this

2575
01:39:52,870 --> 01:39:50,310
that shares

2576
01:39:55,669 --> 01:39:52,880
a lot with our world

2577
01:39:58,709 --> 01:39:55,679
even though it's a simpler version so

2578
01:40:00,310 --> 01:39:58,719
this game has lights colors and shadows

2579
01:40:04,629 --> 01:40:00,320
and

2580
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:04,639
these things in at least in human

2581
01:40:08,870 --> 01:40:05,760
experience

2582
01:40:11,590 --> 01:40:09,669
so

2583
01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:11,600
if we can exercise the feeling of

2584
01:40:14,629 --> 01:40:13,199
epiphany

2585
01:40:16,790 --> 01:40:14,639
well and from enough different

2586
01:40:19,990 --> 01:40:16,800
directions in the field of this game

2587
01:40:23,590 --> 01:40:21,350
give people something that they can

2588
01:40:24,390 --> 01:40:23,600
carry out a little bit

2589
01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:24,400
right

2590
01:40:28,070 --> 01:40:25,760
that

2591
01:40:29,910 --> 01:40:28,080
maybe in the real world they have more

2592
01:40:33,109 --> 01:40:29,920
of a taste of what this

2593
01:40:35,270 --> 01:40:33,119
sudden understanding is is like

2594
01:40:37,270 --> 01:40:35,280
and maybe that can be interesting to

2595
01:40:38,870 --> 01:40:37,280
them in some way and i felt like a game

2596
01:40:40,229 --> 01:40:38,880
that was just talking to you all the

2597
01:40:41,350 --> 01:40:40,239
time

2598
01:40:43,430 --> 01:40:41,360
um

2599
01:40:45,350 --> 01:40:43,440
wasn't good for any of those

2600
01:40:49,669 --> 01:40:45,360
layers right

2601
01:40:52,870 --> 01:40:51,350
i don't know like if somebody tells you

2602
01:40:54,870 --> 01:40:52,880
how to do something

2603
01:40:55,669 --> 01:40:54,880
you didn't really figure anything out

2604
01:40:56,709 --> 01:40:55,679
right

2605
01:40:57,430 --> 01:40:56,719
um

2606
01:40:59,030 --> 01:40:57,440
so

2607
01:41:00,790 --> 01:40:59,040
it's a weird thing too because one of

2608
01:41:02,830 --> 01:41:00,800
the decisions that i'm still not sure if

2609
01:41:04,470 --> 01:41:02,840
it was right

2610
01:41:06,310 --> 01:41:04,480
um

2611
01:41:07,510 --> 01:41:06,320
was how much talking to have in the game

2612
01:41:09,830 --> 01:41:07,520
at all because there are all these

2613
01:41:10,629 --> 01:41:09,840
recordings um from various people that

2614
01:41:13,189 --> 01:41:10,639
are

2615
01:41:15,430 --> 01:41:13,199
the game is like laced with them but

2616
01:41:17,430 --> 01:41:15,440
they're kind of all hidden in corners

2617
01:41:19,270 --> 01:41:17,440
and stuff you probably have to be

2618
01:41:20,470 --> 01:41:19,280
deliberately looking for them to find

2619
01:41:22,390 --> 01:41:20,480
most of them

2620
01:41:24,310 --> 01:41:22,400
um once you know there's a few that are

2621
01:41:25,830 --> 01:41:24,320
like placed out in the open just to give

2622
01:41:27,750 --> 01:41:25,840
people the idea that these things are

2623
01:41:29,430 --> 01:41:27,760
there

2624
01:41:31,109 --> 01:41:29,440
and maybe it would have been the right

2625
01:41:35,750 --> 01:41:31,119
thing to not have any of those and have

2626
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:39,510
that didn't feel right to me either

2627
01:41:42,070 --> 01:41:41,109
even though it's more pure in a certain

2628
01:41:43,910 --> 01:41:42,080
way

2629
01:41:46,149 --> 01:41:43,920
and and the original idea of the game

2630
01:41:48,709 --> 01:41:46,159
was to have a very explicit storyline in

2631
01:41:50,149 --> 01:41:48,719
it with like a fiction and

2632
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:50,159
things that were happening like a

2633
01:41:54,790 --> 01:41:52,480
narrator and and all this stuff

2634
01:41:56,390 --> 01:41:54,800
um and i cut that because that didn't

2635
01:41:59,189 --> 01:41:56,400
feel good either so

2636
01:42:01,030 --> 01:41:59,199
it's somewhere in this middle ground but

2637
01:42:03,109 --> 01:42:01,040
so it's weird because there is talking

2638
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:03,119
in the game but all the talking in the

2639
01:42:06,390 --> 01:42:05,520
game is not at all about the puzzles

2640
01:42:07,430 --> 01:42:06,400
ever

2641
01:42:09,750 --> 01:42:07,440
right

2642
01:42:12,070 --> 01:42:09,760
and you have to kind of ask the game for

2643
01:42:13,270 --> 01:42:12,080
the talking because otherwise you won't

2644
01:42:18,229 --> 01:42:13,280
get it

2645
01:42:23,750 --> 01:42:21,030
um that's a very long

2646
01:42:25,430 --> 01:42:23,760
i i don't know if i can explain that

2647
01:42:27,750 --> 01:42:25,440
very well from the point in the

2648
01:42:32,390 --> 01:42:27,760
conversation where we are

2649
01:42:35,270 --> 01:42:34,390
so he's in there

2650
01:42:38,470 --> 01:42:35,280
as

2651
01:42:43,189 --> 01:42:38,480
one of the videos that you can find

2652
01:42:47,430 --> 01:42:46,149
those videos are supposed to be

2653
01:42:49,430 --> 01:42:47,440
um

2654
01:42:51,990 --> 01:42:49,440
things so as i said earlier when i make

2655
01:42:53,990 --> 01:42:52,000
a game like this it's about things

2656
01:42:56,470 --> 01:42:54,000
that

2657
01:42:57,990 --> 01:42:56,480
i do not have a complete grasp on

2658
01:43:04,390 --> 01:42:58,000
right

2659
01:43:07,830 --> 01:43:06,310
and i wanted to return to this theme of

2660
01:43:11,109 --> 01:43:07,840
like trying to understand the world to

2661
01:43:13,350 --> 01:43:11,119
understand the universe and so

2662
01:43:14,790 --> 01:43:13,360
this is

2663
01:43:16,229 --> 01:43:14,800
i mean i really don't like saying

2664
01:43:19,430 --> 01:43:16,239
anything about what games are about

2665
01:43:20,470 --> 01:43:19,440
right right but one element of this game

2666
01:43:21,990 --> 01:43:20,480
right

2667
01:43:23,270 --> 01:43:22,000
those videos

2668
01:43:25,189 --> 01:43:23,280
um

2669
01:43:27,590 --> 01:43:25,199
illustrate

2670
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:27,600
the process of understanding what the

2671
01:43:32,229 --> 01:43:30,080
universe is about from the point of view

2672
01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:32,239
of different people who have very very

2673
01:43:35,109 --> 01:43:33,600
different

2674
01:43:41,830 --> 01:43:35,119
views of what the universe is about

2675
01:43:47,189 --> 01:43:44,470
if i want to talk about the pursuit of

2676
01:43:55,510 --> 01:43:47,199
understanding right

2677
01:44:03,590 --> 01:43:56,870
then

2678
01:44:06,870 --> 01:44:05,350
not sure how to say this in the most

2679
01:44:09,910 --> 01:44:06,880
effective way

2680
01:44:13,430 --> 01:44:11,590
it's a mistake to only have one

2681
01:44:16,390 --> 01:44:13,440
perspective and not follow many or not

2682
01:44:20,790 --> 01:44:16,400
be sort of like the temptation is the

2683
01:44:24,390 --> 01:44:20,800
temptation is to present yourself

2684
01:44:27,270 --> 01:44:24,400
to the audience as oh i have i have

2685
01:44:30,149 --> 01:44:27,280
answers about the universe and this

2686
01:44:31,030 --> 01:44:30,159
is how you will discover them right

2687
01:44:32,950 --> 01:44:31,040
and

2688
01:44:36,629 --> 01:44:32,960
um that would not have been truthful for

2689
01:44:38,470 --> 01:44:36,639
me to do that

2690
01:44:40,870 --> 01:44:38,480
so i made it

2691
01:44:44,390 --> 01:44:40,880
i made these things this part of the

2692
01:44:47,590 --> 01:44:45,830
this desire that we spoke of at the

2693
01:44:49,830 --> 01:44:47,600
beginning to understand the universe in

2694
01:44:51,109 --> 01:44:49,840
the best way

2695
01:44:53,590 --> 01:44:51,119
possible

2696
01:44:58,310 --> 01:44:56,149
you know these these videos come from

2697
01:45:00,310 --> 01:44:58,320
different directions

2698
01:45:02,470 --> 01:45:00,320
of understanding things so so one very

2699
01:45:06,070 --> 01:45:02,480
different video the the first video that

2700
01:45:08,709 --> 01:45:06,080
players are likely to find is uh from

2701
01:45:12,950 --> 01:45:08,719
james burke the english documentarian

2702
01:45:15,830 --> 01:45:14,870
it's a very like

2703
01:45:17,510 --> 01:45:15,840
pro

2704
01:45:19,590 --> 01:45:17,520
anti-religion

2705
01:45:22,950 --> 01:45:19,600
um

2706
01:45:24,550 --> 01:45:22,960
way of making sense of the world and

2707
01:45:26,229 --> 01:45:24,560
it's a very eloquent

2708
01:45:31,189 --> 01:45:26,239
like

2709
01:45:33,270 --> 01:45:31,199
well-presented thing right um

2710
01:45:36,790 --> 01:45:33,280
it's a viewpoint that does not really

2711
01:45:37,830 --> 01:45:36,800
satisfy me right i would not if that was

2712
01:45:39,510 --> 01:45:37,840
the way

2713
01:45:41,350 --> 01:45:39,520
that i thought about the world i would

2714
01:45:43,270 --> 01:45:41,360
feel like something was missing from my

2715
01:45:44,470 --> 01:45:43,280
viewpoint um

2716
01:45:46,709 --> 01:45:44,480
but

2717
01:45:49,270 --> 01:45:46,719
uh

2718
01:45:52,870 --> 01:45:49,280
very strong in in some other ways and a

2719
01:45:56,550 --> 01:45:55,510
like in composition with these other

2720
01:45:57,830 --> 01:45:56,560
things

2721
01:46:00,390 --> 01:45:57,840
because that's what i'm always trying to

2722
01:46:03,510 --> 01:46:00,400
do is compose right in composition with

2723
01:46:05,669 --> 01:46:03,520
these other things together

2724
01:46:13,189 --> 01:46:05,679
um they hopefully

2725
01:46:17,669 --> 01:46:15,590
different ways of thinking about

2726
01:46:19,830 --> 01:46:17,679
the universe and

2727
01:46:21,830 --> 01:46:19,840
what it means that that okay and then

2728
01:46:23,750 --> 01:46:21,840
the other thing to say that all were

2729
01:46:25,270 --> 01:46:23,760
very personally important to me at some

2730
01:46:27,669 --> 01:46:25,280
time or another so the reason it's that

2731
01:46:30,070 --> 01:46:27,679
particular video from rupert

2732
01:46:31,590 --> 01:46:30,080
is because i was there in that room

2733
01:46:33,030 --> 01:46:31,600
uh that was

2734
01:46:35,189 --> 01:46:33,040
my first

2735
01:46:38,470 --> 01:46:35,199
exposure to him

2736
01:46:39,830 --> 01:46:38,480
so i was there at that event

2737
01:46:42,070 --> 01:46:39,840
and

2738
01:46:44,709 --> 01:46:42,080
um it was very meaningful to me like i

2739
01:46:47,910 --> 01:46:44,719
really um sometimes you hear people say

2740
01:46:51,030 --> 01:46:49,350
i

2741
01:46:52,070 --> 01:46:51,040
yeah

2742
01:46:53,270 --> 01:46:52,080
you know

2743
01:46:55,669 --> 01:46:53,280
so um

2744
01:46:58,629 --> 01:46:55,679
that's what that was and so all of these

2745
01:47:01,430 --> 01:46:58,639
videos have a very personal element

2746
01:47:03,189 --> 01:47:01,440
to them as well that help pick them out

2747
01:47:04,950 --> 01:47:03,199
from all the things because there are

2748
01:47:06,390 --> 01:47:04,960
many things that could have been in the

2749
01:47:09,510 --> 01:47:06,400
game to like make some kind of

2750
01:47:11,669 --> 01:47:09,520
philosophical point but these ones all

2751
01:47:15,830 --> 01:47:11,679
really mattered to me personally in one

2752
01:47:19,910 --> 01:47:17,830
one of the reasons i'm so interested

2753
01:47:22,149 --> 01:47:19,920
i was and am interested in speaking with

2754
01:47:24,149 --> 01:47:22,159
you is because we have so many

2755
01:47:25,910 --> 01:47:24,159
overlapping interests so one is this

2756
01:47:28,149 --> 01:47:25,920
multi-faceted

2757
01:47:29,990 --> 01:47:28,159
this kaleidoscopic

2758
01:47:31,430 --> 01:47:30,000
approach to understanding truth by

2759
01:47:33,350 --> 01:47:31,440
hearing other people's perspectives

2760
01:47:37,109 --> 01:47:33,360
especially those who disagree with or

2761
01:47:37,910 --> 01:47:37,119
that are so far out from what you accept

2762
01:47:39,510 --> 01:47:37,920
and

2763
01:47:41,270 --> 01:47:39,520
then i also heard you talk about stephen

2764
01:47:43,510 --> 01:47:41,280
wolfram which we're going to talk about

2765
01:47:45,350 --> 01:47:43,520
and so i'm interested in stephen wolfram

2766
01:47:47,270 --> 01:47:45,360
and his physics project i would like to

2767
01:47:48,550 --> 01:47:47,280
get to how you come up with your own

2768
01:47:50,790 --> 01:47:48,560
thoughts

2769
01:47:52,470 --> 01:47:50,800
it sounds like a trivial matter first

2770
01:47:54,310 --> 01:47:52,480
for most people like how is it that you

2771
01:47:57,910 --> 01:47:54,320
have an original thought but i think

2772
01:47:59,990 --> 01:47:57,920
that having your own point of view

2773
01:48:01,590 --> 01:48:00,000
is exceedingly difficult one of the

2774
01:48:02,470 --> 01:48:01,600
reasons i was attracted to initially was

2775
01:48:05,189 --> 01:48:02,480
hearing

2776
01:48:06,550 --> 01:48:05,199
you excoriate the general trends in

2777
01:48:08,709 --> 01:48:06,560
games

2778
01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:08,719
for example even though i'm a huge fan

2779
01:48:12,629 --> 01:48:10,639
of metal gear solid 4 and grand theft

2780
01:48:14,149 --> 01:48:12,639
auto and so on you were saying well

2781
01:48:16,070 --> 01:48:14,159
here's what i don't like about

2782
01:48:17,910 --> 01:48:16,080
so-and-so's story supposedly story

2783
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:17,920
driven games in them whatever yeah you

2784
01:48:22,790 --> 01:48:20,480
had your own point of view so how is it

2785
01:48:24,870 --> 01:48:22,800
that you come up with your own ideas how

2786
01:48:26,310 --> 01:48:24,880
do you have your own positions

2787
01:48:28,870 --> 01:48:26,320
i mean i would say that it's not

2788
01:48:31,109 --> 01:48:28,880
automatic so

2789
01:48:33,189 --> 01:48:31,119
like i was saying earlier when i got

2790
01:48:35,350 --> 01:48:33,199
into games professionally

2791
01:48:40,390 --> 01:48:35,360
i would read reviews i would read public

2792
01:48:44,470 --> 01:48:43,189
and at that time i didn't necessarily

2793
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:44,480
have

2794
01:48:47,830 --> 01:48:46,000
i hadn't come to many of these

2795
01:48:49,990 --> 01:48:47,840
conclusions that you're referring to

2796
01:48:52,790 --> 01:48:50,000
that i later talked about

2797
01:48:55,830 --> 01:48:52,800
um but what i did want to do is i just i

2798
01:48:58,229 --> 01:48:55,840
had a desire to be very good at this

2799
01:48:59,270 --> 01:48:58,239
right like i want to

2800
01:49:01,189 --> 01:48:59,280
design

2801
01:49:02,709 --> 01:49:01,199
the most interesting best thing right i

2802
01:49:04,950 --> 01:49:02,719
want to program the most interesting

2803
01:49:09,510 --> 01:49:04,960
best thing and that just

2804
01:49:14,229 --> 01:49:11,510
a motivator

2805
01:49:16,950 --> 01:49:14,239
to

2806
01:49:19,030 --> 01:49:16,960
just work hard on the things and

2807
01:49:21,350 --> 01:49:19,040
keep thinking about them and if you do

2808
01:49:27,350 --> 01:49:24,629
it always has seemed to me that i end up

2809
01:49:29,510 --> 01:49:27,360
eventually forming my own viewpoint

2810
01:49:30,950 --> 01:49:29,520
that's informed by all the things that i

2811
01:49:34,310 --> 01:49:30,960
learned right

2812
01:49:37,109 --> 01:49:34,320
um so it may just be an attribute of

2813
01:49:38,950 --> 01:49:37,119
time and

2814
01:49:41,990 --> 01:49:38,960
effort but i don't actually you know i

2815
01:49:43,270 --> 01:49:42,000
don't know how other people think so i'm

2816
01:49:45,030 --> 01:49:43,280
not sure that i could say anything

2817
01:49:46,709 --> 01:49:45,040
useful there

2818
01:49:49,589 --> 01:49:46,719
do you meditate

2819
01:49:52,070 --> 01:49:49,599
not as much as i should

2820
01:49:55,589 --> 01:49:52,080
but yeah i do so what type of meditation

2821
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:55,599
is it mindfulness gratefulness

2822
01:49:58,950 --> 01:49:58,000
um you know i almost don't even really

2823
01:50:01,189 --> 01:49:58,960
know

2824
01:50:03,030 --> 01:50:01,199
what kinds of words that people use

2825
01:50:05,589 --> 01:50:03,040
because people use like even the word

2826
01:50:07,270 --> 01:50:05,599
mindfulness i don't know what that means

2827
01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:07,280
and i know a number of different people

2828
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:08,800
who teach mindfulness and they teach

2829
01:50:13,189 --> 01:50:10,400
different things

2830
01:50:15,109 --> 01:50:13,199
so um or why don't you just describe it

2831
01:50:17,510 --> 01:50:15,119
if you're comfortable doing so well okay

2832
01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:17,520
i have training in a number of things

2833
01:50:21,109 --> 01:50:19,040
um

2834
01:50:23,430 --> 01:50:21,119
and they're all different right

2835
01:50:26,390 --> 01:50:23,440
so i have training in kung fu and tai

2836
01:50:31,430 --> 01:50:28,790
i've done a fair bit of tai chi although

2837
01:50:34,629 --> 01:50:33,430
i wouldn't say it expert level by any

2838
01:50:39,589 --> 01:50:34,639
means

2839
01:50:44,070 --> 01:50:41,669
have been to a number of

2840
01:50:46,229 --> 01:50:44,080
vipassana retreats like the shorter ones

2841
01:50:47,270 --> 01:50:46,239
like 10 days silent retreat kind of

2842
01:50:48,550 --> 01:50:47,280
things

2843
01:50:50,390 --> 01:50:48,560
um

2844
01:50:52,709 --> 01:50:50,400
and i found those to be very interesting

2845
01:50:56,070 --> 01:50:52,719
and effective

2846
01:50:56,080 --> 01:51:00,950
a nice

2847
01:51:06,550 --> 01:51:03,350
like vipassana is

2848
01:51:09,669 --> 01:51:06,560
i personally find it a nice meditation

2849
01:51:12,390 --> 01:51:09,679
to be able to do and sustain if i'm

2850
01:51:14,470 --> 01:51:12,400
somewhere because

2851
01:51:16,310 --> 01:51:14,480
because there's an active component of

2852
01:51:22,149 --> 01:51:16,320
it

2853
01:51:23,589 --> 01:51:22,159
then

2854
01:51:25,430 --> 01:51:23,599
um

2855
01:51:26,870 --> 01:51:25,440
it's easier to not get distracted i

2856
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:26,880
guess

2857
01:51:30,709 --> 01:51:28,400
that description may not make sense to

2858
01:51:32,870 --> 01:51:30,719
people who haven't done it but um

2859
01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:32,880
you know but but the most powerful one

2860
01:51:37,510 --> 01:51:35,360
um for me has been

2861
01:51:39,189 --> 01:51:37,520
um the kind of meditation that rupert

2862
01:51:40,790 --> 01:51:39,199
talks about and and that some other

2863
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:40,800
people talk about which

2864
01:51:46,830 --> 01:51:43,760
may or may not be related to mindfulness

2865
01:51:49,430 --> 01:51:46,840
depending on who you're talking to right

2866
01:51:52,550 --> 01:51:49,440
um but definitely

2867
01:51:53,750 --> 01:51:52,560
uh just at at any time

2868
01:51:56,229 --> 01:51:53,760
you know

2869
01:51:57,430 --> 01:51:56,239
uh if i just drop into

2870
01:51:59,350 --> 01:51:57,440
a more

2871
01:52:00,830 --> 01:51:59,360
direct

2872
01:52:03,910 --> 01:52:00,840
mode

2873
01:52:06,470 --> 01:52:03,920
of perceiving and being

2874
01:52:07,510 --> 01:52:06,480
it's a very relaxing thing

2875
01:52:10,149 --> 01:52:07,520
and

2876
01:52:12,870 --> 01:52:10,159
you know at some point i just

2877
01:52:13,830 --> 01:52:12,880
found out how easy it is to do that

2878
01:52:15,510 --> 01:52:13,840
um

2879
01:52:19,990 --> 01:52:15,520
and it's been

2880
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:21,830
but but i but i can't so so the other

2881
01:52:25,109 --> 01:52:23,440
thing i'll say is i cannot claim to be

2882
01:52:26,149 --> 01:52:25,119
an example in all of these things

2883
01:52:28,629 --> 01:52:26,159
because

2884
01:52:30,390 --> 01:52:28,639
i spend a great deal of time

2885
01:52:32,149 --> 01:52:30,400
programming

2886
01:52:35,510 --> 01:52:32,159
had very little time meditating in

2887
01:52:38,550 --> 01:52:35,520
comparison so i i would not um hold

2888
01:52:42,149 --> 01:52:38,560
myself up in that regard

2889
01:52:47,910 --> 01:52:44,310
why is it important it evokes it evokes

2890
01:52:51,589 --> 01:52:47,920
calmness presence graciousness ideas

2891
01:52:51,599 --> 01:52:54,950
i mean i've always been taught

2892
01:52:58,310 --> 01:52:56,790
by all the people teaching all of these

2893
01:53:00,070 --> 01:52:58,320
kinds of meditations that they're not

2894
01:53:01,990 --> 01:53:00,080
necessarily goal

2895
01:53:04,550 --> 01:53:02,000
oriented

2896
01:53:06,550 --> 01:53:04,560
what i will say is

2897
01:53:09,350 --> 01:53:06,560
and also any goal that's short term i

2898
01:53:11,189 --> 01:53:09,360
don't particularly value anyway so like

2899
01:53:13,990 --> 01:53:11,199
oh if i meditate and it makes me feel

2900
01:53:15,030 --> 01:53:14,000
nice for an hour afterward

2901
01:53:18,310 --> 01:53:15,040
okay cool

2902
01:53:20,149 --> 01:53:18,320
like i like feeling nice but

2903
01:53:23,270 --> 01:53:20,159
is it really that important to me that i

2904
01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:23,280
feel nice right is that in my top

2905
01:53:28,629 --> 01:53:25,440
three priorities for life

2906
01:53:31,990 --> 01:53:29,910
that's actually another thing that i

2907
01:53:34,229 --> 01:53:32,000
realized that i differ from a lot of

2908
01:53:36,709 --> 01:53:34,239
people on for a lot of people

2909
01:53:38,830 --> 01:53:36,719
feeling nice is in the top priorities

2910
01:53:42,950 --> 01:53:38,840
and for me it's not

2911
01:53:45,350 --> 01:53:42,960
so you know um but what i will say is

2912
01:53:46,310 --> 01:53:45,360
that there have been positive effects

2913
01:53:48,870 --> 01:53:46,320
and

2914
01:53:49,830 --> 01:53:48,880
it's just very hard to

2915
01:53:52,709 --> 01:53:49,840
pin

2916
01:53:54,950 --> 01:53:52,719
a particular effect to a particular

2917
01:53:56,470 --> 01:53:54,960
practice or a cause when you talk about

2918
01:53:57,990 --> 01:53:56,480
things that you've been doing

2919
01:53:59,750 --> 01:53:58,000
for a long time

2920
01:54:01,910 --> 01:53:59,760
um

2921
01:54:03,990 --> 01:54:01,920
you did mention on a podcast

2922
01:54:05,430 --> 01:54:04,000
that there's this one question something

2923
01:54:07,669 --> 01:54:05,440
along the lines of are you conscious

2924
01:54:10,149 --> 01:54:07,679
that you're conscious something spyrian

2925
01:54:12,629 --> 01:54:10,159
like rupert spire likes yes and that

2926
01:54:14,070 --> 01:54:12,639
from that question in one second you've

2927
01:54:16,149 --> 01:54:14,080
gotten some insights that have carried

2928
01:54:18,870 --> 01:54:16,159
with you throughout your entire life

2929
01:54:20,709 --> 01:54:18,880
yeah there have definitely been a few um

2930
01:54:23,910 --> 01:54:20,719
occasions where there are things like

2931
01:54:24,870 --> 01:54:23,920
that where like very very briefly

2932
01:54:27,510 --> 01:54:24,880
you know

2933
01:54:30,070 --> 01:54:27,520
um i happened to be in the right state

2934
01:54:32,310 --> 01:54:30,080
at the right time and

2935
01:54:33,350 --> 01:54:32,320
just got over something or unlocked

2936
01:54:34,470 --> 01:54:33,360
something

2937
01:54:35,669 --> 01:54:34,480
you know

2938
01:54:36,870 --> 01:54:35,679
um

2939
01:54:38,229 --> 01:54:36,880
that

2940
01:54:40,950 --> 01:54:38,239
uh

2941
01:54:43,669 --> 01:54:40,960
has has been nice

2942
01:54:45,669 --> 01:54:43,679
has been nice to understand or be over

2943
01:54:47,990 --> 01:54:45,679
or be rid of to understand that i'm not

2944
01:54:48,830 --> 01:54:48,000
bound by right do you mind sharing ones

2945
01:54:51,030 --> 01:54:48,840
that's

2946
01:54:52,229 --> 01:54:51,040
specific that you're comfortable with

2947
01:54:53,750 --> 01:54:52,239
obviously

2948
01:54:56,229 --> 01:54:53,760
um sure

2949
01:54:58,390 --> 01:54:56,239
uh this one is not

2950
01:54:59,910 --> 01:54:58,400
from that kind okay so there's

2951
01:55:05,430 --> 01:54:59,920
there's another kind of meditation i

2952
01:55:11,270 --> 01:55:08,390
also some kind of mindfulness right it's

2953
01:55:12,870 --> 01:55:11,280
a catch-all word um

2954
01:55:14,790 --> 01:55:12,880
you know but it's a kind of inquiry

2955
01:55:18,950 --> 01:55:14,800
where you look

2956
01:55:20,709 --> 01:55:18,960
you you look interiorly to see

2957
01:55:22,070 --> 01:55:20,719
what's going on

2958
01:55:22,870 --> 01:55:22,080
right

2959
01:55:26,310 --> 01:55:22,880
um

2960
01:55:27,669 --> 01:55:26,320
and you know you're just you just

2961
01:55:29,189 --> 01:55:27,679
it's hard to explain to people who

2962
01:55:31,350 --> 01:55:29,199
haven't done this

2963
01:55:34,870 --> 01:55:31,360
what that's like but you just look and

2964
01:55:35,750 --> 01:55:34,880
you see what's happening um

2965
01:55:39,189 --> 01:55:35,760
and

2966
01:55:41,589 --> 01:55:39,199
i had gone to a meditation retreat

2967
01:55:48,470 --> 01:55:44,310
um

2968
01:55:50,709 --> 01:55:48,480
of them that that were doing this

2969
01:55:52,950 --> 01:55:50,719
practice and i had just i had flown back

2970
01:55:55,510 --> 01:55:52,960
from that one and on the plane back i

2971
01:55:59,270 --> 01:55:57,830
felt like i'd understood

2972
01:56:01,270 --> 01:55:59,280
something to a little bit of a further

2973
01:56:02,470 --> 01:56:01,280
level than i had before

2974
01:56:04,390 --> 01:56:02,480
even though

2975
01:56:06,870 --> 01:56:04,400
there was no concrete indicator of that

2976
01:56:08,790 --> 01:56:06,880
i was like i don't i don't know um and

2977
01:56:10,470 --> 01:56:08,800
then i just had good experiences from

2978
01:56:12,310 --> 01:56:10,480
then on like

2979
01:56:13,830 --> 01:56:12,320
so the next day it was i remember it was

2980
01:56:15,669 --> 01:56:13,840
saturday morning and i was living in

2981
01:56:16,950 --> 01:56:15,679
this place in san francisco

2982
01:56:17,830 --> 01:56:16,960
and

2983
01:56:19,990 --> 01:56:17,840
it's

2984
01:56:21,750 --> 01:56:20,000
you know six or seven blocks away from

2985
01:56:23,669 --> 01:56:21,760
some places to eat

2986
01:56:25,430 --> 01:56:23,679
uh

2987
01:56:27,030 --> 01:56:25,440
but the hill is very steep so i would

2988
01:56:29,589 --> 01:56:27,040
drive that six or seven blocks because

2989
01:56:31,990 --> 01:56:29,599
to walk up that hill with a full stomach

2990
01:56:35,830 --> 01:56:32,000
is like very bad right it's like a super

2991
01:56:37,510 --> 01:56:35,840
steep san francisco hill yeah um

2992
01:56:38,550 --> 01:56:37,520
and then i was like

2993
01:56:40,870 --> 01:56:38,560
i had just come back from this

2994
01:56:42,870 --> 01:56:40,880
meditation retreat and i was very grumpy

2995
01:56:45,270 --> 01:56:42,880
i was like oh my god it's saturday i'm

2996
01:56:47,109 --> 01:56:45,280
not going to be able to park anywhere

2997
01:56:49,669 --> 01:56:47,119
and like eat because it's going to be

2998
01:56:50,870 --> 01:56:49,679
all these people out for an hour

2999
01:56:53,350 --> 01:56:50,880
for

3000
01:56:54,950 --> 01:56:53,360
brunch ahead of time and like why can't

3001
01:56:56,470 --> 01:56:54,960
i even just get something to eat in my

3002
01:56:58,629 --> 01:56:56,480
own neighborhood what is wrong it was

3003
01:56:59,910 --> 01:56:58,639
like terrible right

3004
01:57:02,229 --> 01:56:59,920
um

3005
01:57:03,510 --> 01:57:02,239
but i realized so

3006
01:57:05,109 --> 01:57:03,520
you know we have all these stories

3007
01:57:08,070 --> 01:57:05,119
stacked up about ourselves and i

3008
01:57:11,109 --> 01:57:08,080
realized for example um

3009
01:57:12,950 --> 01:57:11,119
oh i have this idea that i get you know

3010
01:57:15,030 --> 01:57:12,960
grumpy in the morning when i don't eat

3011
01:57:16,629 --> 01:57:15,040
which is something you know not totally

3012
01:57:18,470 --> 01:57:16,639
uncommon a number of people feel that

3013
01:57:20,709 --> 01:57:18,480
way um

3014
01:57:23,350 --> 01:57:20,719
and i just had this idea that this was

3015
01:57:25,270 --> 01:57:23,360
part of me and this was part of my it

3016
01:57:26,870 --> 01:57:25,280
was because i have a high metabolism or

3017
01:57:28,550 --> 01:57:26,880
something even though

3018
01:57:29,830 --> 01:57:28,560
i was probably getting kind of chubby at

3019
01:57:32,390 --> 01:57:29,840
that point

3020
01:57:35,990 --> 01:57:33,830
and but

3021
01:57:38,629 --> 01:57:36,000
but i noticed that i was feeling

3022
01:57:40,870 --> 01:57:38,639
this way and i had had this training

3023
01:57:42,790 --> 01:57:40,880
into inquiring into feelings and so i

3024
01:57:44,310 --> 01:57:42,800
was literally like halfway down this

3025
01:57:46,709 --> 01:57:44,320
hill driving down the hill in san

3026
01:57:48,470 --> 01:57:46,719
francisco and i just looked for a second

3027
01:57:49,910 --> 01:57:48,480
at this feeling of hunger that i knew i

3028
01:57:51,750 --> 01:57:49,920
must have had right

3029
01:57:54,310 --> 01:57:51,760
and

3030
01:57:56,390 --> 01:57:54,320
just in in one second i saw oh there's

3031
01:57:58,310 --> 01:57:56,400
an actual feeling of of hunger there

3032
01:57:59,990 --> 01:57:58,320
like a physical

3033
01:58:02,390 --> 01:58:00,000
it's so small

3034
01:58:04,149 --> 01:58:02,400
it's like a tiny tiny pinpoint and it's

3035
01:58:06,870 --> 01:58:04,159
surrounded by

3036
01:58:08,149 --> 01:58:06,880
all this amplification to make a big

3037
01:58:10,390 --> 01:58:08,159
deal out of it and all this

3038
01:58:13,109 --> 01:58:10,400
amplification is made up and if i

3039
01:58:14,790 --> 01:58:13,119
actually just look at the actual feeling

3040
01:58:17,430 --> 01:58:14,800
it's no big deal and i could put up with

3041
01:58:19,669 --> 01:58:17,440
this feeling for a long time right and

3042
01:58:22,870 --> 01:58:19,679
so right there

3043
01:58:24,790 --> 01:58:22,880
um like it wasn't this big you know epic

3044
01:58:26,790 --> 01:58:24,800
i went to meditate for a month and i

3045
01:58:29,030 --> 01:58:26,800
came out in it was just one second in

3046
01:58:30,870 --> 01:58:29,040
one day i realized

3047
01:58:34,229 --> 01:58:30,880
that this whole grumpiness that i

3048
01:58:40,550 --> 01:58:34,239
thought was just part of my personality

3049
01:58:43,669 --> 01:58:42,709
fake essentially right

3050
01:58:45,270 --> 01:58:43,679
um

3051
01:58:47,030 --> 01:58:45,280
like you could imagine how that happens

3052
01:58:48,709 --> 01:58:47,040
maybe you're a baby and you're hungry

3053
01:58:51,350 --> 01:58:48,719
and you realize when you make a big deal

3054
01:58:53,750 --> 01:58:51,360
out of being hungry people bring you

3055
01:58:55,510 --> 01:58:53,760
stuff and that's or something like i

3056
01:58:56,550 --> 01:58:55,520
don't know that's just an idea about how

3057
01:58:59,510 --> 01:58:56,560
it could be

3058
01:59:03,430 --> 01:58:59,520
um but but in that one second while i

3059
01:59:05,510 --> 01:59:03,440
was driving down a hill uh

3060
01:59:06,310 --> 01:59:05,520
i just change that part of myself and

3061
01:59:10,950 --> 01:59:06,320
like

3062
01:59:13,189 --> 01:59:10,960
the same kind of response just naturally

3063
01:59:16,229 --> 01:59:13,199
and any time that i start to

3064
01:59:18,550 --> 01:59:16,239
it's just like no i saw that it's not a

3065
01:59:21,350 --> 01:59:18,560
big deal it's not real like i i see you

3066
01:59:22,709 --> 01:59:21,360
know now that's a relatively

3067
01:59:24,470 --> 01:59:22,719
um

3068
01:59:26,709 --> 01:59:24,480
mundane

3069
01:59:29,430 --> 01:59:26,719
city like being being grumpy because

3070
01:59:30,709 --> 01:59:29,440
you're hungry is a relatively mundane

3071
01:59:31,910 --> 01:59:30,719
um

3072
01:59:33,109 --> 01:59:31,920
situation

3073
01:59:34,550 --> 01:59:33,119
but

3074
01:59:36,709 --> 01:59:34,560
it's probably

3075
01:59:40,070 --> 01:59:36,719
the most concrete one for me where it's

3076
01:59:43,990 --> 01:59:40,080
like oh i saw this ha i saw it happen

3077
01:59:45,589 --> 01:59:44,000
right um at the same time i think that

3078
01:59:46,870 --> 01:59:45,599
when you're engaged in these techniques

3079
01:59:48,950 --> 01:59:46,880
there are lots of things that you don't

3080
01:59:52,149 --> 01:59:48,960
see happen and there may be much deeper

3081
01:59:54,390 --> 01:59:52,159
than than that or

3082
01:59:55,830 --> 01:59:54,400
maybe much more numerous and subtler i

3083
01:59:57,189 --> 01:59:55,840
don't know about deeper deeper is a

3084
01:59:58,790 --> 01:59:57,199
weird word

3085
02:00:00,950 --> 01:59:58,800
um

3086
02:00:03,990 --> 02:00:00,960
but so that's like that's a benefit of

3087
02:00:07,189 --> 02:00:04,000
meditation right i don't have this

3088
02:00:09,270 --> 02:00:07,199
particular problem anymore that i hadn't

3089
02:00:11,270 --> 02:00:09,280
even thought was necessarily because i

3090
02:00:13,990 --> 02:00:11,280
thought it was a physiological process

3091
02:00:16,550 --> 02:00:14,000
right we we have these stories like oh

3092
02:00:19,189 --> 02:00:16,560
there's chemicals in our body in our

3093
02:00:21,109 --> 02:00:19,199
brain that make us feel a certain way

3094
02:00:23,030 --> 02:00:21,119
and like okay

3095
02:00:24,870 --> 02:00:23,040
i'm sure there's something to that but i

3096
02:00:26,470 --> 02:00:24,880
very clearly saw that most of this was

3097
02:00:27,669 --> 02:00:26,480
made up right

3098
02:00:29,270 --> 02:00:27,679
so

3099
02:00:30,629 --> 02:00:29,280
um let's explore that for a little bit

3100
02:00:32,950 --> 02:00:30,639
why do you think that it's made up

3101
02:00:35,910 --> 02:00:32,960
because it sounds intuitively obvious to

3102
02:00:38,310 --> 02:00:35,920
most let's say materialists

3103
02:00:39,990 --> 02:00:38,320
um if you take a pill that has a certain

3104
02:00:42,070 --> 02:00:40,000
amount of a neurochemical or can cause a

3105
02:00:44,629 --> 02:00:42,080
different neuromodulator in your brain

3106
02:00:47,270 --> 02:00:44,639
to be ramped up or ramped down then that

3107
02:00:49,589 --> 02:00:47,280
has an effect on your qualia

3108
02:00:50,870 --> 02:00:49,599
or your perception sure yeah so why do

3109
02:00:52,310 --> 02:00:50,880
you see that as

3110
02:00:55,750 --> 02:00:52,320
not being as

3111
02:00:58,709 --> 02:00:55,760
big of a deal as most people think

3112
02:01:02,149 --> 02:00:58,719
like okay okay i'm not saying that

3113
02:01:06,830 --> 02:01:02,159
you don't have biochemistry that affects

3114
02:01:12,790 --> 02:01:10,070
um i mean i'm not a biologist and even

3115
02:01:15,109 --> 02:01:12,800
most biologists have not gone and

3116
02:01:17,270 --> 02:01:15,119
measured their own processes i mean

3117
02:01:18,790 --> 02:01:17,280
nobody actually has a full view of cause

3118
02:01:20,790 --> 02:01:18,800
and effect in the human body right and

3119
02:01:22,390 --> 02:01:20,800
so we're guessing a lot of the time and

3120
02:01:23,990 --> 02:01:22,400
for me as someone who's scientifically

3121
02:01:26,070 --> 02:01:24,000
educated but not

3122
02:01:28,390 --> 02:01:26,080
biologically scientifically educated

3123
02:01:29,750 --> 02:01:28,400
right i'm making extra levels of guesses

3124
02:01:33,270 --> 02:01:29,760
beyond what a lot of people would and

3125
02:01:34,310 --> 02:01:33,280
it's like oh i've heard stories about

3126
02:01:37,350 --> 02:01:34,320
you know

3127
02:01:39,430 --> 02:01:37,360
how things happen in the body and then

3128
02:01:42,149 --> 02:01:39,440
well here's a way that i feel sometimes

3129
02:01:44,310 --> 02:01:42,159
and i made an explanation earlier in

3130
02:01:45,510 --> 02:01:44,320
life about what must be happening and

3131
02:01:48,550 --> 02:01:45,520
therefore

3132
02:01:52,149 --> 02:01:48,560
it's not really changeable like okay

3133
02:01:53,589 --> 02:01:52,159
for my biochemistry it must be

3134
02:01:55,430 --> 02:01:53,599
that

3135
02:01:58,229 --> 02:01:55,440
this happens and its cause and effect

3136
02:02:00,629 --> 02:01:58,239
but then i got some insight into the

3137
02:02:02,790 --> 02:02:00,639
fact that that wasn't that explanation

3138
02:02:05,669 --> 02:02:02,800
was not true right

3139
02:02:06,790 --> 02:02:05,679
um

3140
02:02:08,550 --> 02:02:06,800
it doesn't mean that there aren't

3141
02:02:10,709 --> 02:02:08,560
physical processes

3142
02:02:11,990 --> 02:02:10,719
right in the physical world it just

3143
02:02:15,030 --> 02:02:12,000
means

3144
02:02:17,589 --> 02:02:15,040
that my particular explanation was naive

3145
02:02:18,550 --> 02:02:17,599
of what was happening right

3146
02:02:21,350 --> 02:02:18,560
so

3147
02:02:24,629 --> 02:02:22,950
i don't know that's again i don't mean

3148
02:02:25,990 --> 02:02:24,639
to make too much of out of that example

3149
02:02:28,870 --> 02:02:26,000
because it's a very small thing but it

3150
02:02:30,629 --> 02:02:28,880
was just it was very concrete and clear

3151
02:02:33,030 --> 02:02:30,639
when you use the word story that this is

3152
02:02:34,709 --> 02:02:33,040
simply a story that one tells oneself

3153
02:02:36,790 --> 02:02:34,719
are you using that in a similar way to

3154
02:02:44,310 --> 02:02:36,800
this is a model that one has or are

3155
02:02:48,149 --> 02:02:46,149
i think that varies based on the person

3156
02:02:50,310 --> 02:02:48,159
i think for somebody who's

3157
02:02:52,310 --> 02:02:50,320
got it some kind of scientific education

3158
02:02:55,830 --> 02:02:52,320
then there's a model attached to a story

3159
02:03:00,709 --> 02:02:59,030
to be frank about it um

3160
02:03:03,669 --> 02:03:00,719
it's pre-model

3161
02:03:06,070 --> 02:03:03,679
no i i just want to say um it's more

3162
02:03:07,350 --> 02:03:06,080
like the story serves as an excuse of

3163
02:03:09,430 --> 02:03:07,360
some kind

3164
02:03:11,589 --> 02:03:09,440
and then the model helps justify the

3165
02:03:12,790 --> 02:03:11,599
excuse

3166
02:03:15,830 --> 02:03:12,800
right

3167
02:03:17,750 --> 02:03:15,840
um interesting like okay

3168
02:03:19,510 --> 02:03:17,760
if i'm grumpy

3169
02:03:22,070 --> 02:03:19,520
uh it's not

3170
02:03:24,950 --> 02:03:22,080
it's certainly not a personality aspect

3171
02:03:26,550 --> 02:03:24,960
that i could change and be better at

3172
02:03:28,950 --> 02:03:26,560
it's just

3173
02:03:30,709 --> 02:03:28,960
how things are because of like chemicals

3174
02:03:34,229 --> 02:03:30,719
right um

3175
02:03:38,149 --> 02:03:36,149
have you heard ian mcgill christ's

3176
02:03:43,589 --> 02:03:38,159
master and its emissary

3177
02:03:44,950 --> 02:03:43,599
um that i saw a portion of that uh

3178
02:03:46,470 --> 02:03:44,960
that interview you did with him because

3179
02:03:48,229 --> 02:03:46,480
it was one of the ones that i checked

3180
02:03:50,390 --> 02:03:48,239
out prior to doing this

3181
02:03:52,149 --> 02:03:50,400
the reason is that but but i haven't you

3182
02:03:55,109 --> 02:03:52,159
know i don't know the original word you

3183
02:03:56,550 --> 02:03:55,119
should read his book that's one of

3184
02:04:00,390 --> 02:03:56,560
a few books

3185
02:04:02,550 --> 02:04:01,750
it's essentially you can think of it as

3186
02:04:11,270 --> 02:04:02,560
the

3187
02:04:13,350 --> 02:04:11,280
post

3188
02:04:15,910 --> 02:04:13,360
oh yeah i mean it's very clear that

3189
02:04:17,270 --> 02:04:15,920
human beings do this all the time right

3190
02:04:20,790 --> 02:04:17,280
um

3191
02:04:22,870 --> 02:04:20,800
like we're in this time when

3192
02:04:25,990 --> 02:04:22,880
we

3193
02:04:29,830 --> 02:04:26,000
uh think very highly of

3194
02:04:31,669 --> 02:04:29,840
being scientific being rational right

3195
02:04:32,950 --> 02:04:31,679
that that the world is some objective

3196
02:04:34,629 --> 02:04:32,960
thing the rules of which can be

3197
02:04:36,310 --> 02:04:34,639
understood and then

3198
02:04:38,229 --> 02:04:36,320
you can

3199
02:04:40,310 --> 02:04:38,239
have an understanding

3200
02:04:42,390 --> 02:04:40,320
in detail of those rules and use that to

3201
02:04:44,550 --> 02:04:42,400
formulate the plans that are the best or

3202
02:04:49,990 --> 02:04:44,560
something right

3203
02:04:54,870 --> 02:04:52,950
um

3204
02:04:57,350 --> 02:04:54,880
let's say you have 10 people in a room

3205
02:04:59,830 --> 02:04:57,360
who all say they're doing that

3206
02:05:02,390 --> 02:04:59,840
okay maybe maybe three of the people are

3207
02:05:04,310 --> 02:05:02,400
really trying to do it

3208
02:05:06,069 --> 02:05:04,320
but they're fallible as human beings and

3209
02:05:10,069 --> 02:05:06,079
so

3210
02:05:11,669 --> 02:05:10,079
help steer the conclusions right but

3211
02:05:14,629 --> 02:05:11,679
then the other seven people aren't even

3212
02:05:16,069 --> 02:05:14,639
trying the other seven people are

3213
02:05:18,470 --> 02:05:16,079
uh

3214
02:05:20,709 --> 02:05:18,480
just pretending to care about being

3215
02:05:22,950 --> 02:05:20,719
objective and going according to

3216
02:05:25,270 --> 02:05:22,960
principle and really are just doing the

3217
02:05:27,910 --> 02:05:25,280
thing that human beings always do

3218
02:05:31,910 --> 02:05:29,030
just

3219
02:05:34,390 --> 02:05:31,920
whatever they think helps them right now

3220
02:05:36,390 --> 02:05:34,400
right and and oh here's an excuse here's

3221
02:05:38,709 --> 02:05:36,400
a way that people currently socially

3222
02:05:40,550 --> 02:05:38,719
believe is justified

3223
02:05:42,629 --> 02:05:40,560
like we have this picture where the

3224
02:05:44,950 --> 02:05:42,639
people standing over there

3225
02:05:47,350 --> 02:05:44,960
are the people who are smart and correct

3226
02:05:49,669 --> 02:05:47,360
so i'm gonna go stand over there right

3227
02:05:51,830 --> 02:05:49,679
as opposed to being drawn to stand over

3228
02:05:53,589 --> 02:05:51,840
there by

3229
02:05:55,830 --> 02:05:53,599
a priori

3230
02:05:57,350 --> 02:05:55,840
understanding and belief in this kind of

3231
02:05:59,510 --> 02:05:57,360
a thing right

3232
02:06:01,669 --> 02:05:59,520
and so like that's as old as humanity

3233
02:06:02,550 --> 02:06:01,679
right it's going on now it's it's gone

3234
02:06:04,550 --> 02:06:02,560
on

3235
02:06:06,550 --> 02:06:04,560
forever and

3236
02:06:08,709 --> 02:06:06,560
um

3237
02:06:11,030 --> 02:06:08,719
and people will say that no no i am

3238
02:06:13,430 --> 02:06:11,040
standing here because of an a priori

3239
02:06:15,189 --> 02:06:13,440
dispassionate assessment yes but but

3240
02:06:17,109 --> 02:06:15,199
you'll see over time and and maybe

3241
02:06:18,709 --> 02:06:17,119
that's related to what i was saying

3242
02:06:21,430 --> 02:06:18,719
at the beginning about pundits versus

3243
02:06:23,990 --> 02:06:21,440
not um

3244
02:06:26,550 --> 02:06:24,000
you see eventually who those people are

3245
02:06:30,550 --> 02:06:28,229
i don't know how much that matters

3246
02:06:31,830 --> 02:06:30,560
because it's just

3247
02:06:33,189 --> 02:06:31,840
because as soon as you see how those

3248
02:06:34,709 --> 02:06:33,199
people are now you're in some new

3249
02:06:35,589 --> 02:06:34,719
situation where there are different

3250
02:06:37,270 --> 02:06:35,599
people

3251
02:06:38,069 --> 02:06:37,280
who you don't you know who you don't

3252
02:06:39,430 --> 02:06:38,079
know

3253
02:06:40,870 --> 02:06:39,440
so maybe you just have to make good

3254
02:06:42,870 --> 02:06:40,880
friends who you trust and go through

3255
02:06:45,589 --> 02:06:42,880
life that way

3256
02:06:47,669 --> 02:06:45,599
so while we're speaking about models and

3257
02:06:48,870 --> 02:06:47,679
rationality and science and using that

3258
02:06:50,310 --> 02:06:48,880
to

3259
02:06:52,950 --> 02:06:50,320
build up one's

3260
02:06:54,470 --> 02:06:52,960
world view or as i say veltan xiaohung

3261
02:06:56,470 --> 02:06:54,480
you you said that you were reading a

3262
02:06:58,470 --> 02:06:56,480
book called a new kind of science which

3263
02:07:00,229 --> 02:06:58,480
is stephen wolfram's yes they found it

3264
02:07:01,669 --> 02:07:00,239
extremely interesting i'm curious what

3265
02:07:05,030 --> 02:07:01,679
aspects of it

3266
02:07:09,350 --> 02:07:06,870
it's interesting because in that book i

3267
02:07:11,109 --> 02:07:09,360
think he hinted at

3268
02:07:12,629 --> 02:07:11,119
the kinds of things that he's doing very

3269
02:07:15,270 --> 02:07:12,639
explicitly now

3270
02:07:17,830 --> 02:07:15,280
right where he's trying to

3271
02:07:21,189 --> 02:07:17,840
build a theory of the universe

3272
02:07:22,790 --> 02:07:21,199
uh based on cellul cellular i can't the

3273
02:07:24,950 --> 02:07:22,800
word cellular

3274
02:07:29,270 --> 02:07:24,960
cellular automata yeah though it's hyper

3275
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:31,589
and

3276
02:07:35,830 --> 02:07:33,109
you know that's a little bit related to

3277
02:07:37,270 --> 02:07:35,840
the kind of thing that i think about but

3278
02:07:39,430 --> 02:07:37,280
but in a different sphere right he's

3279
02:07:41,589 --> 02:07:39,440
looking at okay here's this certain

3280
02:07:43,270 --> 02:07:41,599
class of models of

3281
02:07:44,950 --> 02:07:43,280
what are essentially simulations where

3282
02:07:47,270 --> 02:07:44,960
they take in a state

3283
02:07:48,709 --> 02:07:47,280
at time t and they output a state at

3284
02:07:50,870 --> 02:07:48,719
time t plus one but if you're trying to

3285
02:07:53,030 --> 02:07:50,880
have an elevated view

3286
02:07:54,149 --> 02:07:53,040
t is not necessarily time because if

3287
02:07:55,669 --> 02:07:54,159
you're building this model you're

3288
02:07:58,629 --> 02:07:55,679
standing outside of the time that's

3289
02:08:00,310 --> 02:07:58,639
interior to the model

3290
02:08:02,310 --> 02:08:00,320
and you're just trying to understand it

3291
02:08:05,109 --> 02:08:02,320
and see what it does and maybe pick

3292
02:08:07,189 --> 02:08:05,119
design parameters

3293
02:08:09,189 --> 02:08:07,199
like you've got a large space within

3294
02:08:12,069 --> 02:08:09,199
which you can navigate by tuning design

3295
02:08:14,709 --> 02:08:12,079
parameters and you try to pick the ones

3296
02:08:17,350 --> 02:08:14,719
that give you the most interesting and

3297
02:08:18,950 --> 02:08:17,360
powerful thing right

3298
02:08:20,709 --> 02:08:18,960
so i think that's very interesting i

3299
02:08:24,149 --> 02:08:20,719
don't know like i'm not a physicist

3300
02:08:24,950 --> 02:08:24,159
right so i do not actually know

3301
02:08:27,189 --> 02:08:24,960
um

3302
02:08:30,550 --> 02:08:27,199
what his chances are of doing something

3303
02:08:33,030 --> 02:08:30,560
with that right um

3304
02:08:35,109 --> 02:08:33,040
and furthermore there's sort of the the

3305
02:08:36,629 --> 02:08:35,119
metaphysical question of

3306
02:08:39,910 --> 02:08:36,639
if he succeeds

3307
02:08:42,790 --> 02:08:39,920
to some arbitrary degree of

3308
02:08:44,149 --> 02:08:42,800
specificity in

3309
02:08:47,669 --> 02:08:44,159
reproducing

3310
02:08:49,350 --> 02:08:47,679
known laws and or predicting new things

3311
02:08:50,790 --> 02:08:49,360
i mean

3312
02:08:52,550 --> 02:08:50,800
of course predicting new things is

3313
02:08:54,790 --> 02:08:52,560
always like the gold standard of like

3314
02:08:57,510 --> 02:08:54,800
how you know you're into something um

3315
02:09:00,149 --> 02:08:57,520
but there's always the question of

3316
02:09:04,950 --> 02:09:02,390
is this just one of a large number of

3317
02:09:06,950 --> 02:09:04,960
models that are isomorphic to each other

3318
02:09:09,990 --> 02:09:06,960
and because he likes cellular automata

3319
02:09:12,950 --> 02:09:10,000
he found the cellular automata one which

3320
02:09:14,550 --> 02:09:12,960
which would be a big deal anyway right

3321
02:09:16,709 --> 02:09:14,560
but it doesn't really answer the

3322
02:09:18,709 --> 02:09:16,719
question of like

3323
02:09:20,790 --> 02:09:18,719
our cellular automata fundamental or

3324
02:09:21,669 --> 02:09:20,800
something you know

3325
02:09:27,030 --> 02:09:21,679
um

3326
02:09:30,229 --> 02:09:28,790
like he probably has some angles in

3327
02:09:32,550 --> 02:09:30,239
which he would argue

3328
02:09:35,109 --> 02:09:32,560
that it does having to do with with

3329
02:09:37,430 --> 02:09:35,119
computational uh irreducibility and

3330
02:09:38,870 --> 02:09:37,440
stuff like that

3331
02:09:41,750 --> 02:09:38,880
okay speaking of computational

3332
02:09:43,270 --> 02:09:41,760
irreducibility okay wolfram thinks free

3333
02:09:45,350 --> 02:09:43,280
will is tied to that

3334
02:09:47,109 --> 02:09:45,360
i'm curious

3335
02:09:49,109 --> 02:09:47,119
but the way that he you the way that he

3336
02:09:51,830 --> 02:09:49,119
defines free will i don't think is the

3337
02:09:54,069 --> 02:09:51,840
way that most people would think

3338
02:09:55,430 --> 02:09:54,079
of the word free will being defined

3339
02:09:58,310 --> 02:09:55,440
more that you can't predict your own

3340
02:09:59,750 --> 02:09:58,320
actions it has to do with predictivity

3341
02:10:01,750 --> 02:09:59,760
either way do you believe that people

3342
02:10:03,189 --> 02:10:01,760
have free will

3343
02:10:11,030 --> 02:10:03,199
or do you believe that you have free

3344
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:16,069
you're asking the hard questions today

3345
02:10:20,950 --> 02:10:18,229
what i think is that

3346
02:10:25,350 --> 02:10:20,960
the idea of free will

3347
02:10:29,589 --> 02:10:27,109
is

3348
02:10:32,229 --> 02:10:29,599
it takes as assumptions backgrounding

3349
02:10:34,790 --> 02:10:32,239
the for the question to make sense

3350
02:10:38,069 --> 02:10:34,800
it requires a picture

3351
02:10:40,709 --> 02:10:38,079
of reality that is too simple

3352
02:10:42,870 --> 02:10:40,719
and that by the time you develop a

3353
02:10:44,149 --> 02:10:42,880
picture of reality that is sophisticated

3354
02:10:46,790 --> 02:10:44,159
enough

3355
02:10:48,149 --> 02:10:46,800
that question kind of doesn't make sense

3356
02:10:50,870 --> 02:10:48,159
anymore

3357
02:10:52,310 --> 02:10:50,880
um i'm not claiming that i'm

3358
02:10:54,310 --> 02:10:52,320
at that level of understanding of

3359
02:10:58,709 --> 02:10:54,320
reality but i am saying

3360
02:11:01,990 --> 02:11:00,310
yeah can you explain to me the simple

3361
02:11:04,629 --> 02:11:02,000
background assumptions that go into a

3362
02:11:06,390 --> 02:11:04,639
question like that and then how with

3363
02:11:08,470 --> 02:11:06,400
more articulated assumptions or more

3364
02:11:10,709 --> 02:11:08,480
advanced assumptions that dissolves the

3365
02:11:13,030 --> 02:11:10,719
question i mean i i feel like this is

3366
02:11:14,709 --> 02:11:13,040
ground that has been covered

3367
02:11:17,910 --> 02:11:14,719
at least okay i mean i don't know i'm

3368
02:11:39,270 --> 02:11:17,920
often very unsatisfied by discussions

3369
02:11:44,310 --> 02:11:42,229
the problem is to do to do a convincing

3370
02:11:46,629 --> 02:11:44,320
explanation on this requires going into

3371
02:11:48,629 --> 02:11:46,639
a lot of like subtopics that

3372
02:11:50,790 --> 02:11:48,639
if people who who haven't heard them

3373
02:11:52,470 --> 02:11:50,800
before hear them first from me i'm not

3374
02:11:53,830 --> 02:11:52,480
going to give a particularly convincing

3375
02:11:55,510 --> 02:11:53,840
version of them because it's not my

3376
02:11:58,229 --> 02:11:55,520
shtick i don't go around

3377
02:12:00,709 --> 02:11:58,239
talking about free will but um there are

3378
02:12:02,229 --> 02:12:00,719
for example um things you can google

3379
02:12:03,830 --> 02:12:02,239
that will give you good starting points

3380
02:12:06,229 --> 02:12:03,840
so for example

3381
02:12:09,510 --> 02:12:06,239
there's a thing called

3382
02:12:11,030 --> 02:12:09,520
the the second time around problem right

3383
02:12:12,310 --> 02:12:11,040
which is that

3384
02:12:14,069 --> 02:12:12,320
uh

3385
02:12:16,149 --> 02:12:14,079
it seems to be

3386
02:12:17,350 --> 02:12:16,159
indistinguishable

3387
02:12:19,030 --> 02:12:17,360
whether

3388
02:12:20,870 --> 02:12:19,040
uh

3389
02:12:23,669 --> 02:12:20,880
like this is the first time things were

3390
02:12:25,990 --> 02:12:23,679
happening and we chose what could happen

3391
02:12:27,430 --> 02:12:26,000
or whether it's a fully deterministic

3392
02:12:29,270 --> 02:12:27,440
playback

3393
02:12:31,030 --> 02:12:29,280
of that and so that's a simpler question

3394
02:12:32,709 --> 02:12:31,040
that you could start with like

3395
02:12:34,950 --> 02:12:32,719
how would i even know the difference

3396
02:12:37,750 --> 02:12:34,960
between those two things because in the

3397
02:12:38,790 --> 02:12:37,760
first time around

3398
02:12:40,470 --> 02:12:38,800
so our

3399
02:12:42,950 --> 02:12:40,480
our reasons for believing we have free

3400
02:12:44,790 --> 02:12:42,960
will are the primary one is that we feel

3401
02:12:46,830 --> 02:12:44,800
like it right we feel like we have free

3402
02:12:49,669 --> 02:12:46,840
will

3403
02:12:51,669 --> 02:12:49,679
um maybe the first time we felt like we

3404
02:12:52,790 --> 02:12:51,679
had free will because we had free will

3405
02:12:54,629 --> 02:12:52,800
right

3406
02:12:56,229 --> 02:12:54,639
um but the second time it's a

3407
02:12:57,910 --> 02:12:56,239
reproduction of the first time so we

3408
02:13:00,550 --> 02:12:57,920
have to feel the same way or it's not a

3409
02:13:03,510 --> 02:13:00,560
good reproduction

3410
02:13:04,870 --> 02:13:03,520
but it's a deterministic reproduction so

3411
02:13:07,750 --> 02:13:04,880
it's not like we could have changed our

3412
02:13:09,750 --> 02:13:07,760
mind right and so

3413
02:13:11,910 --> 02:13:09,760
thinking about a simpler sub problem

3414
02:13:13,990 --> 02:13:11,920
like that is much easier than thinking

3415
02:13:16,310 --> 02:13:14,000
about the problem of

3416
02:13:17,430 --> 02:13:16,320
the actual whole universe that we're in

3417
02:13:20,069 --> 02:13:17,440
right now

3418
02:13:22,069 --> 02:13:20,079
um but by thinking about smaller

3419
02:13:24,229 --> 02:13:22,079
problems like that

3420
02:13:26,069 --> 02:13:24,239
you can broaden your horizons in a

3421
02:13:27,430 --> 02:13:26,079
certain way you can broaden the scope of

3422
02:13:30,870 --> 02:13:27,440
things

3423
02:13:31,669 --> 02:13:30,880
that you think about right

3424
02:13:33,830 --> 02:13:31,679
um

3425
02:13:35,830 --> 02:13:33,840
and so

3426
02:13:38,229 --> 02:13:35,840
in that second time around problem kind

3427
02:13:40,950 --> 02:13:38,239
of case it's unclear whether you had

3428
02:13:42,229 --> 02:13:40,960
free will or not because

3429
02:13:43,990 --> 02:13:42,239
which one of those are you in the

3430
02:13:46,229 --> 02:13:44,000
original or the replay changes the

3431
02:13:48,709 --> 02:13:46,239
answer but then it's exactly the same

3432
02:13:50,629 --> 02:13:48,719
experience in both of them so

3433
02:13:52,310 --> 02:13:50,639
uh

3434
02:13:54,950 --> 02:13:52,320
is that one experience or two

3435
02:13:56,790 --> 02:13:54,960
experiences do you even know right do

3436
02:13:58,950 --> 02:13:56,800
they like map to the same thing or are

3437
02:14:03,589 --> 02:13:58,960
they two separate right

3438
02:14:08,310 --> 02:14:06,229
dang oh you know so for people who know

3439
02:14:09,669 --> 02:14:08,320
a bit of quantum mechanics right you

3440
02:14:10,870 --> 02:14:09,679
know that there are

3441
02:14:13,589 --> 02:14:10,880
uh

3442
02:14:16,390 --> 02:14:13,599
the everettians have become

3443
02:14:17,750 --> 02:14:16,400
quite well represented currently um in

3444
02:14:19,109 --> 02:14:17,760
terms of the way that people interpret

3445
02:14:20,870 --> 02:14:19,119
what's happening and

3446
02:14:22,950 --> 02:14:20,880
the way to interpret things from an

3447
02:14:24,069 --> 02:14:22,960
everettian standpoint is

3448
02:14:26,149 --> 02:14:24,079
that just

3449
02:14:26,950 --> 02:14:26,159
all things that can happen do happen

3450
02:14:27,990 --> 02:14:26,960
right

3451
02:14:29,750 --> 02:14:28,000
and so

3452
02:14:31,589 --> 02:14:29,760
what does it mean to have free will in

3453
02:14:33,589 --> 02:14:31,599
that case it doesn't mean what people

3454
02:14:35,430 --> 02:14:33,599
naively think determinism means which is

3455
02:14:37,189 --> 02:14:35,440
that only one thing happens and must

3456
02:14:39,189 --> 02:14:37,199
happen it's like no

3457
02:14:41,109 --> 02:14:39,199
actually a bunch of things happen but

3458
02:14:43,189 --> 02:14:41,119
then does it

3459
02:14:48,629 --> 02:14:43,199
maybe

3460
02:14:50,629 --> 02:14:48,639
orthogonal to that in some sense anyway

3461
02:14:53,270 --> 02:14:50,639
because it changes the waiting on how

3462
02:14:56,870 --> 02:14:53,280
much of things happen or not like it's

3463
02:14:58,550 --> 02:14:56,880
unclear but so i think that

3464
02:15:00,470 --> 02:14:58,560
rather than trying to answer this

3465
02:15:03,430 --> 02:15:00,480
question directly of do we have free

3466
02:15:05,830 --> 02:15:03,440
will i think the best that people can do

3467
02:15:07,270 --> 02:15:05,840
right now is like go to the gym and work

3468
02:15:09,669 --> 02:15:07,280
out right

3469
02:15:11,830 --> 02:15:09,679
and like pump some iron get buff and

3470
02:15:13,030 --> 02:15:11,840
come back later and answer these

3471
02:15:14,069 --> 02:15:13,040
questions

3472
02:15:15,510 --> 02:15:14,079
um

3473
02:15:16,550 --> 02:15:15,520
do you mean that metaphorically go to

3474
02:15:19,149 --> 02:15:16,560
the gym

3475
02:15:23,270 --> 02:15:19,159
yeah but you know it might help

3476
02:15:24,709 --> 02:15:23,280
non-metaphorically as well um

3477
02:15:26,629 --> 02:15:24,719
so what do you mean metaphorically by

3478
02:15:28,470 --> 02:15:26,639
that do you mean go study philosophy go

3479
02:15:30,709 --> 02:15:28,480
live your life go

3480
02:15:32,069 --> 02:15:30,719
try and develop a skill

3481
02:15:34,229 --> 02:15:32,079
i mean if you're if you're interested in

3482
02:15:36,629 --> 02:15:34,239
the question of free will then

3483
02:15:38,709 --> 02:15:36,639
thinking about these sub-problems i

3484
02:15:41,189 --> 02:15:38,719
think can very quickly get you at least

3485
02:15:43,030 --> 02:15:41,199
to a point where you realize why the the

3486
02:15:44,870 --> 02:15:43,040
question as originally posed is too

3487
02:15:46,870 --> 02:15:44,880
simple to really make sense

3488
02:15:49,430 --> 02:15:46,880
but that's then been replaced by all

3489
02:15:52,229 --> 02:15:49,440
these possibilities of how things could

3490
02:15:54,390 --> 02:15:52,239
be are those possibilities fictional are

3491
02:15:57,270 --> 02:15:54,400
they real

3492
02:15:58,709 --> 02:15:57,280
that's sort of the material you would be

3493
02:16:01,990 --> 02:15:58,719
contending with

3494
02:16:06,149 --> 02:16:02,000
um in that domain but then

3495
02:16:11,430 --> 02:16:09,589
then there's maybe equivalent questions

3496
02:16:15,030 --> 02:16:11,440
that are something like

3497
02:16:16,870 --> 02:16:15,040
do i have free will but that are

3498
02:16:19,589 --> 02:16:16,880
um

3499
02:16:21,830 --> 02:16:19,599
more answerable and maybe more specific

3500
02:16:23,350 --> 02:16:21,840
right

3501
02:16:26,069 --> 02:16:23,360
okay we'll get to some rapid fire

3502
02:16:27,430 --> 02:16:26,079
questions okay we have so many audience

3503
02:16:29,109 --> 02:16:27,440
questions we probably won't get a chance

3504
02:16:30,149 --> 02:16:29,119
to go through all of them oh no that's a

3505
02:16:31,270 --> 02:16:30,159
lot

3506
02:16:33,750 --> 02:16:31,280
and this is

3507
02:16:36,469 --> 02:16:33,760
legal-sized paper

3508
02:16:39,270 --> 02:16:36,479
bullet points okay so one of the

3509
02:16:41,110 --> 02:16:39,280
questions so these next few are from me

3510
02:16:43,190 --> 02:16:41,120
i want to know if you've watched super

3511
02:16:45,429 --> 02:16:43,200
bunny hops review of the witness or

3512
02:16:47,349 --> 02:16:45,439
joseph anderson's review of the witness

3513
02:16:49,589 --> 02:16:47,359
no

3514
02:16:51,270 --> 02:16:49,599
do you watch video game donkey

3515
02:16:53,030 --> 02:16:51,280
sometimes

3516
02:16:54,950 --> 02:16:53,040
man i'm a huge fan of video games he's

3517
02:16:57,429 --> 02:16:54,960
very funny

3518
02:16:59,270 --> 02:16:57,439
okay what is your opinion on no this is

3519
02:17:01,349 --> 02:16:59,280
an open-ended one but please answer

3520
02:17:03,910 --> 02:17:01,359
succinctly briefly

3521
02:17:09,589 --> 02:17:03,920
what's your opinion on vr

3522
02:17:14,309 --> 02:17:11,589
but not for the reason people think

3523
02:17:16,950 --> 02:17:14,319
especially vr developers right so people

3524
02:17:20,549 --> 02:17:16,960
think that vr is about

3525
02:17:21,910 --> 02:17:20,559
uh being more immersed in a game so that

3526
02:17:23,669 --> 02:17:21,920
it feels

3527
02:17:24,870 --> 02:17:23,679
real

3528
02:17:26,709 --> 02:17:24,880
um

3529
02:17:29,270 --> 02:17:26,719
and therefore it can be more compelling

3530
02:17:31,509 --> 02:17:29,280
or something and nobody in the game

3531
02:17:33,110 --> 02:17:31,519
industry seems to want to hear this but

3532
02:17:35,509 --> 02:17:33,120
like there is a little bit of truth to

3533
02:17:37,030 --> 02:17:35,519
that that immersion i will get back to

3534
02:17:40,230 --> 02:17:37,040
it in a minute about what's true about

3535
02:17:41,910 --> 02:17:40,240
it but it's mostly false because

3536
02:17:43,589 --> 02:17:41,920
when you're watching a good movie you're

3537
02:17:45,030 --> 02:17:43,599
immersed when you're reading a good book

3538
02:17:46,549 --> 02:17:45,040
you're immersed when you're listening to

3539
02:17:48,389 --> 02:17:46,559
music that you find beautiful you're

3540
02:17:50,469 --> 02:17:48,399
immersed like immersion

3541
02:17:53,190 --> 02:17:50,479
doesn't require you to wear a bucket on

3542
02:17:56,870 --> 02:17:53,200
your head right that's uncomfortable and

3543
02:17:56,880 --> 02:18:00,870
now

3544
02:18:04,629 --> 02:18:02,870
the thing the thing that it does do

3545
02:18:07,509 --> 02:18:04,639
that's immersive is

3546
02:18:09,589 --> 02:18:07,519
you get a tighter feedback loop between

3547
02:18:11,110 --> 02:18:09,599
your propriocept deceptive sense like

3548
02:18:12,309 --> 02:18:11,120
where your head's moving and like what

3549
02:18:14,870 --> 02:18:12,319
you see

3550
02:18:16,549 --> 02:18:14,880
which is absent when you're playing like

3551
02:18:18,070 --> 02:18:16,559
a 3d game on a monitor because the

3552
02:18:19,110 --> 02:18:18,080
monitor doesn't move in response to your

3553
02:18:21,509 --> 02:18:19,120
head so

3554
02:18:24,230 --> 02:18:21,519
it it incorporates a little bit more of

3555
02:18:26,230 --> 02:18:24,240
your body and this is the more important

3556
02:18:28,709 --> 02:18:26,240
part i think um

3557
02:18:30,629 --> 02:18:28,719
just the tracking on both the headset

3558
02:18:31,910 --> 02:18:30,639
and the controllers

3559
02:18:33,270 --> 02:18:31,920
um

3560
02:18:34,549 --> 02:18:33,280
tends to be very good these days

3561
02:18:36,709 --> 02:18:34,559
actually better on the controllers than

3562
02:18:38,709 --> 02:18:36,719
the headset um

3563
02:18:40,309 --> 02:18:38,719
and what that means

3564
02:18:42,629 --> 02:18:40,319
is you have more bandwidth for

3565
02:18:44,629 --> 02:18:42,639
communicating to the game

3566
02:18:46,389 --> 02:18:44,639
right um in ways that are natural

3567
02:18:48,309 --> 02:18:46,399
because you know how to move your hands

3568
02:18:49,750 --> 02:18:48,319
you know how to move your head right and

3569
02:18:52,230 --> 02:18:49,760
you can move your body to move your head

3570
02:18:54,389 --> 02:18:52,240
around to change where you are and those

3571
02:18:55,509 --> 02:18:54,399
are relatively natural things compared

3572
02:18:56,709 --> 02:18:55,519
to

3573
02:18:58,230 --> 02:18:56,719
you know i'm using this mouse and

3574
02:18:59,270 --> 02:18:58,240
keyboard or something which is not

3575
02:19:01,589 --> 02:18:59,280
something

3576
02:19:03,509 --> 02:19:01,599
that came naturally to humans before we

3577
02:19:04,870 --> 02:19:03,519
invented it right you can learn it in

3578
02:19:06,629 --> 02:19:04,880
that way that we learn to drive and

3579
02:19:07,910 --> 02:19:06,639
stuff but it's it's one step more

3580
02:19:09,910 --> 02:19:07,920
removed and so

3581
02:19:10,790 --> 02:19:09,920
the opportunity of vr

3582
02:19:14,709 --> 02:19:10,800
is

3583
02:19:18,790 --> 02:19:15,990
um

3584
02:19:22,309 --> 02:19:18,800
in order to create experiences

3585
02:19:24,790 --> 02:19:22,319
that are um

3586
02:19:26,629 --> 02:19:24,800
better in some way defeat right so if

3587
02:19:29,190 --> 02:19:26,639
you think about if i'm playing a 3d game

3588
02:19:31,589 --> 02:19:29,200
with a mouse and keyboard my mouse is

3589
02:19:33,589 --> 02:19:31,599
like let's call that two analog degrees

3590
02:19:35,429 --> 02:19:33,599
of freedom it's even not that much but

3591
02:19:37,270 --> 02:19:35,439
whatever and then maybe the keyboard i

3592
02:19:39,270 --> 02:19:37,280
have like five or six keys i'm gonna hit

3593
02:19:40,870 --> 02:19:39,280
so it's like five or six bits

3594
02:19:42,950 --> 02:19:40,880
plus two

3595
02:19:45,270 --> 02:19:42,960
scalar numbers right

3596
02:19:47,030 --> 02:19:45,280
it's more like vr's advantage isn't that

3597
02:19:49,270 --> 02:19:47,040
it inputs something that's more

3598
02:19:51,510 --> 02:19:49,280
immersive to you it's more what you

3599
02:19:53,030 --> 02:19:51,520
output that the game can then use that's

3600
02:19:55,030 --> 02:19:53,040
the one that is the most overlooked i

3601
02:19:56,550 --> 02:19:55,040
think yes so you know just to quantify

3602
02:19:58,230 --> 02:19:56,560
again in

3603
02:20:00,550 --> 02:19:58,240
these are technically six dof

3604
02:20:01,990 --> 02:20:00,560
controllers because there's in 3d space

3605
02:20:05,429 --> 02:20:02,000
there's three degrees of translation and

3606
02:20:07,429 --> 02:20:05,439
three of rotation so you have like 18

3607
02:20:10,630 --> 02:20:07,439
scalars compared to two in your mouse

3608
02:20:11,830 --> 02:20:10,640
and it's not actually that much because

3609
02:20:13,510 --> 02:20:11,840
humans don't really use them

3610
02:20:14,950 --> 02:20:13,520
independently but it's still it's like a

3611
02:20:17,030 --> 02:20:14,960
lot more right

3612
02:20:19,349 --> 02:20:17,040
um and so

3613
02:20:21,910 --> 02:20:19,359
until now games

3614
02:20:23,670 --> 02:20:21,920
mostly talk and don't listen very much

3615
02:20:25,670 --> 02:20:23,680
you know like think about if you're

3616
02:20:27,750 --> 02:20:25,680
playing a game at 4k

3617
02:20:30,950 --> 02:20:27,760
at 24 bit color

3618
02:20:33,670 --> 02:20:30,960
at 60 frames per second that's like

3619
02:20:36,389 --> 02:20:33,680
a lot of bits per second coming at you

3620
02:20:38,950 --> 02:20:36,399
the number of bits per second going in

3621
02:20:40,550 --> 02:20:38,960
is like

3622
02:20:43,510 --> 02:20:40,560
several orders of magnitude less than

3623
02:20:44,389 --> 02:20:43,520
that right like way less

3624
02:20:47,349 --> 02:20:44,399
so

3625
02:20:48,950 --> 02:20:47,359
um what can you do when you have more

3626
02:20:51,349 --> 02:20:48,960
we don't exactly know because i think

3627
02:20:53,590 --> 02:20:51,359
designers dropped the ball a little bit

3628
02:20:55,270 --> 02:20:53,600
in this last wave of vr i think this

3629
02:20:57,670 --> 02:20:55,280
last wave of vr

3630
02:20:59,590 --> 02:20:57,680
would have like people usually think oh

3631
02:21:02,309 --> 02:20:59,600
it's because the hardware technology

3632
02:21:04,150 --> 02:21:02,319
isn't good enough um i do

3633
02:21:07,030 --> 02:21:04,160
think vr will get more successful as the

3634
02:21:09,510 --> 02:21:07,040
hardware gets better but

3635
02:21:11,670 --> 02:21:09,520
um i think designers dropped the ball

3636
02:21:14,389 --> 02:21:11,680
and it would have been more successful

3637
02:21:15,830 --> 02:21:14,399
if designers had understood

3638
02:21:17,590 --> 02:21:15,840
the opportunity

3639
02:21:19,030 --> 02:21:17,600
and taken advantage of it

3640
02:21:21,670 --> 02:21:19,040
you called it a wave

3641
02:21:24,830 --> 02:21:21,680
meaning that we're on the lower end now

3642
02:21:28,790 --> 02:21:24,840
yeah it's pretty clear at this point

3643
02:21:30,950 --> 02:21:28,800
that vr like okay so when

3644
02:21:33,110 --> 02:21:30,960
you know when palmer lucky started

3645
02:21:35,510 --> 02:21:33,120
oculus and then you know valve had also

3646
02:21:37,349 --> 02:21:35,520
been working on vr at that time and then

3647
02:21:39,590 --> 02:21:37,359
sony got into it and like everybody was

3648
02:21:41,429 --> 02:21:39,600
releasing vr systems

3649
02:21:43,429 --> 02:21:41,439
there was this possibility at that time

3650
02:21:45,910 --> 02:21:43,439
that maybe this is like the future of

3651
02:21:48,230 --> 02:21:45,920
all this stuff from now like it's just

3652
02:21:50,389 --> 02:21:48,240
going to be this gets better and

3653
02:21:53,750 --> 02:21:50,399
you know i think most of the people who

3654
02:21:55,990 --> 02:21:53,760
bought vr systems during that time those

3655
02:21:57,510 --> 02:21:56,000
are like in their closet right now or

3656
02:22:00,150 --> 02:21:57,520
something or they're not being used

3657
02:22:01,910 --> 02:22:00,160
daily right that's true for me and so

3658
02:22:04,309 --> 02:22:01,920
um

3659
02:22:08,309 --> 02:22:05,910
what causes people to get those things

3660
02:22:10,790 --> 02:22:08,319
out of their closet or you know what

3661
02:22:12,870 --> 02:22:10,800
what's the next system that does better

3662
02:22:15,030 --> 02:22:12,880
that won't go into the closet quite so

3663
02:22:17,510 --> 02:22:15,040
fast right

3664
02:22:20,070 --> 02:22:17,520
are you planning on making a vr game and

3665
02:22:23,030 --> 02:22:20,080
or do you have ideas for vr games i have

3666
02:22:24,630 --> 02:22:23,040
lots of ideas for vr games um not super

3667
02:22:26,230 --> 02:22:24,640
super deep ones they're just more like

3668
02:22:28,230 --> 02:22:26,240
starting points because like i said this

3669
02:22:30,469 --> 02:22:28,240
process of making games is pretty hard

3670
02:22:31,429 --> 02:22:30,479
and you have to get really into it um

3671
02:22:33,110 --> 02:22:31,439
and

3672
02:22:34,389 --> 02:22:33,120
we never really started on any of these

3673
02:22:38,070 --> 02:22:34,399
ideas so it's hard to say where they

3674
02:22:47,190 --> 02:22:41,830
for sure

3675
02:22:49,429 --> 02:22:47,200
i see interesting places to start

3676
02:22:51,670 --> 02:22:49,439
for a studio of our size we can't really

3677
02:22:54,389 --> 02:22:51,680
make vr games right now because we can't

3678
02:22:56,790 --> 02:22:54,399
afford to because if nobody buys it

3679
02:22:59,750 --> 02:22:56,800
i see out of business right um that

3680
02:23:01,670 --> 02:22:59,760
might change in the future um but at

3681
02:23:03,590 --> 02:23:01,680
this time it's just not really something

3682
02:23:05,910 --> 02:23:03,600
that we could do

3683
02:23:06,870 --> 02:23:05,920
have you played the stanley parable

3684
02:23:08,309 --> 02:23:06,880
yeah

3685
02:23:10,790 --> 02:23:08,319
what do you think of it i know you don't

3686
02:23:12,230 --> 02:23:10,800
like to espouse

3687
02:23:14,389 --> 02:23:12,240
i mean the things that i remember the

3688
02:23:16,469 --> 02:23:14,399
most about the stanley parable are just

3689
02:23:17,590 --> 02:23:16,479
you know the character of the narrator

3690
02:23:18,710 --> 02:23:17,600
right

3691
02:23:20,230 --> 02:23:18,720
and

3692
02:23:21,750 --> 02:23:20,240
you know the way it's playing with

3693
02:23:22,870 --> 02:23:21,760
breaking the fourth wall with regard to

3694
02:23:23,990 --> 02:23:22,880
the narration and all that like all

3695
02:23:25,990 --> 02:23:24,000
things that you know like they're

3696
02:23:27,910 --> 02:23:26,000
obvious right but i think it was

3697
02:23:29,590 --> 02:23:27,920
it was a really interesting and funny

3698
02:23:30,389 --> 02:23:29,600
execution of that

3699
02:23:31,990 --> 02:23:30,399
um

3700
02:23:33,750 --> 02:23:32,000
all that was there so stanley parable

3701
02:23:36,790 --> 02:23:33,760
originally if i remember correctly was

3702
02:23:38,230 --> 02:23:36,800
like a free small demo kind of a thing

3703
02:23:41,030 --> 02:23:38,240
and then the bigger game came

3704
02:23:42,950 --> 02:23:41,040
substantially later um but i felt like a

3705
02:23:44,870 --> 02:23:42,960
lot of this stuff was nailed actually in

3706
02:23:47,190 --> 02:23:44,880
the original version and then the bigger

3707
02:23:48,550 --> 02:23:47,200
game just did more of it

3708
02:23:50,550 --> 02:23:48,560
i would say

3709
02:23:53,270 --> 02:23:50,560
what do you think of open ai as applied

3710
02:23:55,190 --> 02:23:53,280
to video games

3711
02:23:56,550 --> 02:23:55,200
i don't know like

3712
02:23:58,630 --> 02:23:56,560
i'm not really that familiar with

3713
02:24:01,429 --> 02:23:58,640
everything openai is doing like i know

3714
02:24:03,830 --> 02:24:01,439
you know they've done the gpt models of

3715
02:24:05,830 --> 02:24:03,840
you know language processing and then

3716
02:24:08,070 --> 02:24:05,840
people have found weird ways of applying

3717
02:24:09,990 --> 02:24:08,080
that to all sorts of things that are not

3718
02:24:11,830 --> 02:24:10,000
the original application i don't know

3719
02:24:14,630 --> 02:24:11,840
what else they're working on

3720
02:24:16,469 --> 02:24:14,640
i do think that

3721
02:24:17,910 --> 02:24:16,479
like that general kind of deep learning

3722
02:24:19,830 --> 02:24:17,920
neural network thing has a lot of

3723
02:24:21,750 --> 02:24:19,840
applicability in games

3724
02:24:24,230 --> 02:24:21,760
um

3725
02:24:27,670 --> 02:24:24,240
places that come to mind right away are

3726
02:24:29,910 --> 02:24:27,680
like making animations more believable

3727
02:24:31,990 --> 02:24:29,920
that's interesting stuff like that maybe

3728
02:24:33,349 --> 02:24:32,000
uh

3729
02:24:35,910 --> 02:24:33,359
making

3730
02:24:37,190 --> 02:24:35,920
voice synthesis finally happen right

3731
02:24:39,510 --> 02:24:37,200
because there's this thing where in a

3732
02:24:42,790 --> 02:24:41,429
you have voice you have voice actors

3733
02:24:44,469 --> 02:24:42,800
reading

3734
02:24:46,710 --> 02:24:44,479
pre-written stuff and if you're trying

3735
02:24:47,670 --> 02:24:46,720
to do a world like like fallout or

3736
02:24:49,030 --> 02:24:47,680
something where a lot of different

3737
02:24:50,550 --> 02:24:49,040
things could happen

3738
02:24:52,630 --> 02:24:50,560
you just have to pre-record a bunch of

3739
02:24:54,230 --> 02:24:52,640
lines but the actors can't really act

3740
02:24:55,990 --> 02:24:54,240
the lines that well because it's this

3741
02:24:57,830 --> 02:24:56,000
super non-linear space of like they

3742
02:24:59,670 --> 02:24:57,840
don't know what's happening right

3743
02:25:01,429 --> 02:24:59,680
also honestly

3744
02:25:05,590 --> 02:25:01,439
the

3745
02:25:07,670 --> 02:25:05,600
record this kind of acting

3746
02:25:08,710 --> 02:25:07,680
is not actually conducive to good acting

3747
02:25:10,309 --> 02:25:08,720
so

3748
02:25:12,309 --> 02:25:10,319
the actors who are good have done a

3749
02:25:15,030 --> 02:25:12,319
really good job of like working within

3750
02:25:16,309 --> 02:25:15,040
that format to generate good results

3751
02:25:25,429 --> 02:25:16,319
right

3752
02:25:29,190 --> 02:25:26,790
i forgot where i was going to go from

3753
02:25:31,510 --> 02:25:29,200
there but uh you were thinking of

3754
02:25:33,830 --> 02:25:31,520
applications of open ai to video games

3755
02:25:35,910 --> 02:25:33,840
yeah i mean so oh so there's sort of a

3756
02:25:38,710 --> 02:25:35,920
trade-off right i think

3757
02:25:40,389 --> 02:25:38,720
if you wanted to do a game like that by

3758
02:25:42,630 --> 02:25:40,399
actually generating the text

3759
02:25:45,270 --> 02:25:42,640
procedurally and then having a character

3760
02:25:47,349 --> 02:25:45,280
speak it with like an ai generated voice

3761
02:25:49,590 --> 02:25:47,359
i think in the short term

3762
02:25:51,270 --> 02:25:49,600
that's not as good of acting

3763
02:25:52,870 --> 02:25:51,280
nearly as like if you have an actual

3764
02:25:54,230 --> 02:25:52,880
actor do it

3765
02:25:55,990 --> 02:25:54,240
but then again there's lots of video

3766
02:25:57,190 --> 02:25:56,000
games with bad acting and people think

3767
02:25:57,910 --> 02:25:57,200
that's fine

3768
02:26:00,070 --> 02:25:57,920
so

3769
02:26:01,590 --> 02:26:00,080
maybe you can make a trade-off where the

3770
02:26:02,950 --> 02:26:01,600
amount of stuff you could do in the game

3771
02:26:05,349 --> 02:26:02,960
is so much higher or the amount of

3772
02:26:06,790 --> 02:26:05,359
possibility space is so much bigger that

3773
02:26:08,309 --> 02:26:06,800
it's fine that the acting isn't

3774
02:26:11,349 --> 02:26:08,319
necessarily that good and you

3775
02:26:12,550 --> 02:26:11,359
consciously make that trade off right

3776
02:26:14,630 --> 02:26:12,560
what's your

3777
02:26:15,830 --> 02:26:14,640
thoughts on the potential of unreal

3778
02:26:17,110 --> 02:26:15,840
engine 5

3779
02:26:18,790 --> 02:26:17,120
do you see it as completely game

3780
02:26:21,670 --> 02:26:18,800
changing

3781
02:26:23,750 --> 02:26:21,680
um i mean it's doing

3782
02:26:26,070 --> 02:26:23,760
i i don't use off-the-shelf engines

3783
02:26:27,030 --> 02:26:26,080
right i'm i'm a do-it-yourself kind of

3784
02:26:29,510 --> 02:26:27,040
guy

3785
02:26:33,510 --> 02:26:31,910
part of what i value in having our own

3786
02:26:34,870 --> 02:26:33,520
company is the ability to craft

3787
02:26:37,110 --> 02:26:34,880
something technically that will do

3788
02:26:39,590 --> 02:26:37,120
exactly what we want right um

3789
02:26:42,710 --> 02:26:39,600
i think engines like that are useful for

3790
02:26:44,950 --> 02:26:42,720
a lot of people obviously um

3791
02:26:46,710 --> 02:26:44,960
with unreal i think that they're

3792
02:26:47,429 --> 02:26:46,720
they're

3793
02:26:49,349 --> 02:26:47,439
like

3794
02:26:50,710 --> 02:26:49,359
the stuff they showed off this year if

3795
02:26:52,950 --> 02:26:50,720
it was this year and not late last year

3796
02:26:54,550 --> 02:26:52,960
i've sort of lost

3797
02:26:58,469 --> 02:26:54,560
my remembrance of when they announced

3798
02:27:01,190 --> 02:26:58,479
like the nanite stuff and all that um

3799
02:27:04,389 --> 02:27:01,200
i mean i think that's just the latest

3800
02:27:08,630 --> 02:27:06,469
the kind of unreal engine playbook that

3801
02:27:10,389 --> 02:27:08,640
they've been following

3802
02:27:13,429 --> 02:27:10,399
since um

3803
02:27:15,270 --> 02:27:13,439
since the beginning really

3804
02:27:17,349 --> 02:27:15,280
so that's been successful for them

3805
02:27:19,830 --> 02:27:17,359
obviously right like they build things

3806
02:27:21,429 --> 02:27:19,840
that look really good

3807
02:27:23,830 --> 02:27:21,439
people want to use those things in their

3808
02:27:25,190 --> 02:27:23,840
games and so they license the engine and

3809
02:27:27,590 --> 02:27:25,200
this is

3810
02:27:29,590 --> 02:27:27,600
another step of that it is another step

3811
02:27:31,510 --> 02:27:29,600
of that in a time when it's harder to do

3812
02:27:34,550 --> 02:27:31,520
so that's really interesting like in the

3813
02:27:35,990 --> 02:27:34,560
early days of games

3814
02:27:38,150 --> 02:27:36,000
in the very beginning

3815
02:27:40,230 --> 02:27:38,160
it was just people like mostly john

3816
02:27:42,870 --> 02:27:40,240
carmack um

3817
02:27:45,190 --> 02:27:42,880
figuring out how to do stuff in 3d at

3818
02:27:47,270 --> 02:27:45,200
all in real time right but then once we

3819
02:27:48,550 --> 02:27:47,280
kind of had the basics of that

3820
02:27:50,230 --> 02:27:48,560
um

3821
02:27:53,349 --> 02:27:50,240
there was a great deal of like computer

3822
02:27:55,830 --> 02:27:53,359
graphics research that had been done

3823
02:28:00,150 --> 02:27:55,840
that was still mostly too slow for real

3824
02:28:02,309 --> 02:28:00,160
time but that we could figure out how to

3825
02:28:04,389 --> 02:28:02,319
incorporate elements of and and go

3826
02:28:06,710 --> 02:28:04,399
forward right and so we kind of had a

3827
02:28:07,670 --> 02:28:06,720
road map for a while like oh how do we

3828
02:28:11,270 --> 02:28:07,680
do

3829
02:28:12,550 --> 02:28:11,280
that in real time on the hardware that

3830
02:28:13,910 --> 02:28:12,560
we have and that's a very concrete

3831
02:28:15,510 --> 02:28:13,920
problem right

3832
02:28:17,110 --> 02:28:15,520
um

3833
02:28:18,469 --> 02:28:17,120
now it's like

3834
02:28:20,309 --> 02:28:18,479
well we kind of caught up with

3835
02:28:21,670 --> 02:28:20,319
everything that's obviously good like

3836
02:28:24,150 --> 02:28:21,680
you know

3837
02:28:26,389 --> 02:28:24,160
something like a pixar movie does do way

3838
02:28:28,070 --> 02:28:26,399
more expensive rendering than we do but

3839
02:28:30,309 --> 02:28:28,080
it's unclear how much of that is really

3840
02:28:33,510 --> 02:28:30,319
conducive to real time and

3841
02:28:35,270 --> 02:28:33,520
whatever and um so

3842
02:28:37,270 --> 02:28:35,280
there's not like a clear road map

3843
02:28:39,349 --> 02:28:37,280
anymore like there used to be and so

3844
02:28:42,230 --> 02:28:39,359
if this is your job is to advance the

3845
02:28:43,670 --> 02:28:42,240
field now you're kind of striking out in

3846
02:28:46,070 --> 02:28:43,680
your own direction and so that's what

3847
02:28:47,510 --> 02:28:46,080
they've been doing here and

3848
02:28:49,590 --> 02:28:47,520
it looks like they've been doing that

3849
02:28:51,190 --> 02:28:49,600
successfully we'll see

3850
02:28:54,150 --> 02:28:51,200
i think there's some downsides to that

3851
02:28:55,190 --> 02:28:54,160
kind of model that they were advertising

3852
02:28:57,030 --> 02:28:55,200
um

3853
02:28:58,790 --> 02:28:57,040
just practical downsides in terms of how

3854
02:29:00,550 --> 02:28:58,800
do you make a game but

3855
02:29:02,710 --> 02:29:00,560
that's also what i thought when they

3856
02:29:05,590 --> 02:29:02,720
gave the demos

3857
02:29:07,030 --> 02:29:05,600
for what became gears of war i was like

3858
02:29:08,309 --> 02:29:07,040
i don't know how i would ever deal with

3859
02:29:10,070 --> 02:29:08,319
this and then that became industry

3860
02:29:12,070 --> 02:29:10,080
standard so we'll see

3861
02:29:13,670 --> 02:29:12,080
i was looking up some of the tech demos

3862
02:29:17,510 --> 02:29:13,680
on that night it seems like what's being

3863
02:29:19,990 --> 02:29:17,520
done is revolutionary and i don't know

3864
02:29:21,750 --> 02:29:20,000
i don't know what it is what that secret

3865
02:29:24,070 --> 02:29:21,760
sauce is that allows them to render so

3866
02:29:25,190 --> 02:29:24,080
many polygons

3867
02:29:27,429 --> 02:29:25,200
they've actually published some

3868
02:29:29,990 --> 02:29:27,439
technical papers that explain it right i

3869
02:29:31,830 --> 02:29:30,000
think they're so not worried about

3870
02:29:33,190 --> 02:29:31,840
other engines catching up to them that

3871
02:29:35,270 --> 02:29:33,200
they're just like here's how we do it

3872
02:29:36,389 --> 02:29:35,280
mostly because a lot of in something

3873
02:29:38,870 --> 02:29:36,399
like that

3874
02:29:40,630 --> 02:29:38,880
a lot of what makes it work is just that

3875
02:29:42,389 --> 02:29:40,640
you got in there and really figured out

3876
02:29:44,150 --> 02:29:42,399
like hundreds of little practical

3877
02:29:45,910 --> 02:29:44,160
problems right and they probably didn't

3878
02:29:48,710 --> 02:29:45,920
publish all those

3879
02:29:49,830 --> 02:29:48,720
because how would you right um

3880
02:29:51,670 --> 02:29:49,840
but yeah i think there are some

3881
02:29:53,349 --> 02:29:51,680
relatively in-depth explanations if

3882
02:29:55,030 --> 02:29:53,359
you're interested and now do you see

3883
02:29:56,950 --> 02:29:55,040
that as game changing outside of the

3884
02:29:58,870 --> 02:29:56,960
visual aspects like it's visual eye

3885
02:30:00,389 --> 02:29:58,880
candy do you see it as actually changing

3886
02:30:01,670 --> 02:30:00,399
the mechanics of the game or the way

3887
02:30:05,429 --> 02:30:01,680
that

3888
02:30:07,510 --> 02:30:05,439
they can spend it elsewhere or they can

3889
02:30:08,870 --> 02:30:07,520
use it to test

3890
02:30:10,630 --> 02:30:08,880
mechanically

3891
02:30:12,469 --> 02:30:10,640
yeah no design wise i don't see an

3892
02:30:14,150 --> 02:30:12,479
obvious thing that that does

3893
02:30:15,670 --> 02:30:14,160
um it's an obvious increase in the

3894
02:30:17,110 --> 02:30:15,680
visual fidelity that you could have in a

3895
02:30:18,469 --> 02:30:17,120
scene right

3896
02:30:20,150 --> 02:30:18,479
um

3897
02:30:21,830 --> 02:30:20,160
that said

3898
02:30:23,830 --> 02:30:21,840
like the way that they pitched it in at

3899
02:30:25,990 --> 02:30:23,840
least one of the things that i saw was

3900
02:30:27,590 --> 02:30:26,000
um hey your artists don't have to deal

3901
02:30:28,550 --> 02:30:27,600
with all these level of detail tools and

3902
02:30:30,070 --> 02:30:28,560
whatever

3903
02:30:32,309 --> 02:30:30,080
they can just

3904
02:30:34,950 --> 02:30:32,319
dump this source polygons that they're

3905
02:30:36,950 --> 02:30:34,960
working with into the game and run with

3906
02:30:38,389 --> 02:30:36,960
that and on the one hand that sounds

3907
02:30:39,510 --> 02:30:38,399
very easy right

3908
02:30:41,590 --> 02:30:39,520
on the other hand that sounds like a

3909
02:30:43,590 --> 02:30:41,600
giant pain in the ass because now the

3910
02:30:45,110 --> 02:30:43,600
amount of data that i have in source

3911
02:30:47,510 --> 02:30:45,120
control is like

3912
02:30:49,590 --> 02:30:47,520
several orders of magnitude bigger and

3913
02:30:52,070 --> 02:30:49,600
like that becomes its own

3914
02:30:53,510 --> 02:30:52,080
like i want to see what people do about

3915
02:30:56,070 --> 02:30:53,520
that right

3916
02:31:04,469 --> 02:30:59,110
that said it well and also it does seem

3917
02:31:07,190 --> 02:31:05,910
just because it's a little too high-end

3918
02:31:09,510 --> 02:31:07,200
but that's the history of all these

3919
02:31:10,630 --> 02:31:09,520
things is they get built they get

3920
02:31:13,670 --> 02:31:10,640
announced

3921
02:31:16,150 --> 02:31:13,680
they're probably too slow to really use

3922
02:31:18,389 --> 02:31:16,160
right now but then next generation or a

3923
02:31:19,110 --> 02:31:18,399
few years go by and things get faster

3924
02:31:20,070 --> 02:31:19,120
and

3925
02:31:21,830 --> 02:31:20,080
then

3926
02:31:23,830 --> 02:31:21,840
you know so that's the same playbook

3927
02:31:25,750 --> 02:31:23,840
that's been going on for a long time now

3928
02:31:28,790 --> 02:31:25,760
that said systems aren't getting as much

3929
02:31:30,630 --> 02:31:28,800
faster over time as they used to um but

3930
02:31:32,150 --> 02:31:30,640
still yeah i don't know like i would

3931
02:31:33,349 --> 02:31:32,160
just like to see i'm interested to see

3932
02:31:35,030 --> 02:31:33,359
what they do with it and where they go

3933
02:31:36,550 --> 02:31:35,040
with it all right we're going to get to

3934
02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:36,560
audience questions

3935
02:31:40,790 --> 02:31:38,880
okay this one comes from forcefield i

3936
02:31:43,110 --> 02:31:40,800
want so bad to ask jonathan blow if he's

3937
02:31:44,870 --> 02:31:43,120
familiar with the work of henry berkson

3938
02:31:46,870 --> 02:31:44,880
the theme of the witness resonates so

3939
02:31:49,670 --> 02:31:46,880
much with his philosophy and all of what

3940
02:31:51,349 --> 02:31:49,680
jonathan said in in this interview just

3941
02:31:53,190 --> 02:31:51,359
underscores that i don't know why he

3942
02:31:54,550 --> 02:31:53,200
says in this interview

3943
02:31:56,469 --> 02:31:54,560
maybe i pulled this from someone's

3944
02:31:57,910 --> 02:31:56,479
youtube comment

3945
02:31:59,990 --> 02:31:57,920
so okay

3946
02:32:01,429 --> 02:32:00,000
so my understanding of henry bergson

3947
02:32:02,950 --> 02:32:01,439
this is funny because it came up

3948
02:32:06,230 --> 02:32:02,960
actually also in that other interview of

3949
02:32:07,990 --> 02:32:06,240
yours that i was watching um

3950
02:32:10,230 --> 02:32:08,000
my impression of him is that he was

3951
02:32:12,790 --> 02:32:10,240
quite prolific and said a lot of things

3952
02:32:15,349 --> 02:32:12,800
right and and

3953
02:32:17,270 --> 02:32:15,359
i don't know very much

3954
02:32:20,950 --> 02:32:17,280
i i don't have a comprehensive picture

3955
02:32:25,349 --> 02:32:20,960
of what he did um my impression of him

3956
02:32:28,070 --> 02:32:25,359
from what i did see which is maybe um

3957
02:32:29,510 --> 02:32:28,080
you know some long-form articles about

3958
02:32:30,950 --> 02:32:29,520
that time

3959
02:32:33,429 --> 02:32:30,960
combined with

3960
02:32:35,349 --> 02:32:33,439
i think i have a book of his and tried

3961
02:32:39,270 --> 02:32:35,359
to read a little bit of it is that i'm

3962
02:32:44,790 --> 02:32:41,670
to the kind of things that he said and

3963
02:32:45,830 --> 02:32:44,800
wrote but that is a relatively ignorant

3964
02:32:46,950 --> 02:32:45,840
statement

3965
02:32:48,230 --> 02:32:46,960
because you don't know enough yet

3966
02:32:49,830 --> 02:32:48,240
because i don't i don't totally know

3967
02:32:51,510 --> 02:32:49,840
yeah it's just like

3968
02:32:53,349 --> 02:32:51,520
we're surrounded by so much information

3969
02:32:54,870 --> 02:32:53,359
that we have to early on make judgments

3970
02:32:57,349 --> 02:32:54,880
about what to look further into and what

3971
02:33:00,230 --> 02:32:57,359
to ignore and i put him in the to ignore

3972
02:33:02,389 --> 02:33:00,240
pile but that might be wrong right right

3973
02:33:04,950 --> 02:33:02,399
okay so this question comes from steph

3974
02:33:07,670 --> 02:33:04,960
how do you achieve subconscious artistic

3975
02:33:09,750 --> 02:33:07,680
expression in game making so for example

3976
02:33:12,550 --> 02:33:09,760
beethoven said that music just came to

3977
02:33:14,469 --> 02:33:12,560
him he channeled it more than anything

3978
02:33:15,510 --> 02:33:14,479
and david lynch said that great ideas

3979
02:33:17,270 --> 02:33:15,520
are like

3980
02:33:18,830 --> 02:33:17,280
big fish in our subconscious that we

3981
02:33:21,270 --> 02:33:18,840
have to catch

3982
02:33:23,270 --> 02:33:21,280
yes he may he wrote a book about that

3983
02:33:24,870 --> 02:33:23,280
called catching the big fish

3984
02:33:26,630 --> 02:33:24,880
it's very short and easy to read for

3985
02:33:29,750 --> 02:33:26,640
people who are interested

3986
02:33:29,760 --> 02:33:34,150
i mean i don't have anything to add

3987
02:33:37,590 --> 02:33:35,429
how is it that you allow your

3988
02:33:39,670 --> 02:33:37,600
subconscious to create

3989
02:33:42,150 --> 02:33:39,680
i mean i don't like if i try too hard to

3990
02:33:44,150 --> 02:33:42,160
make it happen then i'm trying too hard

3991
02:33:46,309 --> 02:33:44,160
and it's either not good or it doesn't

3992
02:33:49,990 --> 02:33:46,319
really happen right so i've definitely

3993
02:33:50,950 --> 02:33:50,000
been the beneficiary of ideas popping up

3994
02:33:52,309 --> 02:33:50,960
right

3995
02:33:54,309 --> 02:33:52,319
um

3996
02:33:56,070 --> 02:33:54,319
i have a speech that i did about this

3997
02:33:57,429 --> 02:33:56,080
topic that i could link to i'll have to

3998
02:33:59,030 --> 02:33:57,439
dig it up and

3999
02:34:01,510 --> 02:33:59,040
email you afterwards maybe you can put

4000
02:34:04,150 --> 02:34:01,520
it in notes or something

4001
02:34:05,830 --> 02:34:04,160
i i've been the beneficiary of this kind

4002
02:34:07,190 --> 02:34:05,840
of thing sometimes not as much as i

4003
02:34:08,469 --> 02:34:07,200
would like

4004
02:34:14,309 --> 02:34:08,479
and

4005
02:34:17,590 --> 02:34:15,910
it always makes the work that i do

4006
02:34:19,429 --> 02:34:17,600
better

4007
02:34:22,230 --> 02:34:19,439
when those come in

4008
02:34:25,270 --> 02:34:23,510
i don't

4009
02:34:29,270 --> 02:34:25,280
like if i could tell you how to do it i

4010
02:34:32,630 --> 02:34:31,190
i do think that working hard on

4011
02:34:34,790 --> 02:34:32,640
something

4012
02:34:36,150 --> 02:34:34,800
is one of the ingredients

4013
02:34:37,990 --> 02:34:36,160
um

4014
02:34:39,910 --> 02:34:38,000
you know you can't just be lazy and not

4015
02:34:41,030 --> 02:34:39,920
care about something and get these kind

4016
02:34:42,870 --> 02:34:41,040
of ideas

4017
02:34:46,630 --> 02:34:42,880
you have to really care about it and

4018
02:34:48,150 --> 02:34:46,640
want to know aside from that

4019
02:34:50,150 --> 02:34:48,160
i don't know man

4020
02:34:51,590 --> 02:34:50,160
um

4021
02:34:53,429 --> 02:34:51,600
all right well we'll move on to the next

4022
02:34:55,510 --> 02:34:53,439
one steven brent says it seems to me

4023
02:34:57,190 --> 02:34:55,520
that you jonathan blow

4024
02:34:59,030 --> 02:34:57,200
one of your goals as a game designer is

4025
02:35:00,870 --> 02:34:59,040
to produce not just a physical response

4026
02:35:02,710 --> 02:35:00,880
in the player but to cultivate a state

4027
02:35:04,150 --> 02:35:02,720
of mind or awareness

4028
02:35:07,270 --> 02:35:04,160
do you think that video games are

4029
02:35:09,510 --> 02:35:07,280
uniquely suited for this goal over other

4030
02:35:13,110 --> 02:35:09,520
media other forms of media or

4031
02:35:17,590 --> 02:35:14,950
they have their own thing that they can

4032
02:35:19,910 --> 02:35:17,600
do i mean we covered this earlier right

4033
02:35:25,110 --> 02:35:22,550
there are things about the medium that

4034
02:35:28,070 --> 02:35:25,120
we haven't yet completely figured out

4035
02:35:30,630 --> 02:35:28,080
that are ways of expressing

4036
02:35:32,950 --> 02:35:30,640
things that are different

4037
02:35:35,429 --> 02:35:32,960
from what other media

4038
02:35:36,870 --> 02:35:35,439
do and that doesn't just mean the way is

4039
02:35:38,710 --> 02:35:36,880
different it means that the thing you're

4040
02:35:41,750 --> 02:35:38,720
actually expressing is different you

4041
02:35:43,429 --> 02:35:41,760
know like if you read a poem in a book

4042
02:35:45,510 --> 02:35:43,439
that's different than listening to

4043
02:35:46,469 --> 02:35:45,520
someone say a poem it's very different

4044
02:35:48,790 --> 02:35:46,479
right

4045
02:35:53,030 --> 02:35:50,790
the the meaning that you get from the

4046
02:35:56,790 --> 02:35:53,040
thing is just different in each of those

4047
02:35:58,790 --> 02:35:56,800
cases and so games has its own version

4048
02:36:01,030 --> 02:35:58,800
of that and something later that comes

4049
02:36:02,950 --> 02:36:01,040
after games will also have its own

4050
02:36:06,790 --> 02:36:02,960
version of that right

4051
02:36:10,710 --> 02:36:09,510
i don't think that there's anything

4052
02:36:12,790 --> 02:36:10,720
that

4053
02:36:14,230 --> 02:36:12,800
like it's not like games are better at

4054
02:36:16,710 --> 02:36:14,240
everything than anything else i think

4055
02:36:18,389 --> 02:36:16,720
games are worse at some things and quite

4056
02:36:19,990 --> 02:36:18,399
vocally have said that i think games are

4057
02:36:22,150 --> 02:36:20,000
worse at storytelling

4058
02:36:24,790 --> 02:36:22,160
than the traditional storytelling media

4059
02:36:27,270 --> 02:36:24,800
which gets some people very mad but i

4060
02:36:28,550 --> 02:36:27,280
think it's pretty obvious and

4061
02:36:30,309 --> 02:36:28,560
yeah um

4062
02:36:32,870 --> 02:36:30,319
however uh

4063
02:36:34,469 --> 02:36:32,880
that doesn't so it's

4064
02:36:37,190 --> 02:36:34,479
it's not like it's better than other

4065
02:36:39,590 --> 02:36:37,200
things but it is

4066
02:36:41,830 --> 02:36:39,600
its own

4067
02:36:43,110 --> 02:36:41,840
very useful direction at which to come

4068
02:36:45,750 --> 02:36:43,120
at things and

4069
02:36:47,429 --> 02:36:45,760
most of which is to date underutilized

4070
02:36:49,830 --> 02:36:47,439
right

4071
02:36:51,510 --> 02:36:49,840
maybe someday we'll start doing it in a

4072
02:36:55,030 --> 02:36:51,520
bigger

4073
02:36:57,030 --> 02:36:55,040
more powerful way we'll see

4074
02:36:58,469 --> 02:36:57,040
puja sony says

4075
02:37:03,110 --> 02:36:58,479
do you think video games can be designed

4076
02:37:03,120 --> 02:37:10,469
such as being implemented as therapy

4077
02:37:13,670 --> 02:37:12,710
as said no

4078
02:37:15,349 --> 02:37:13,680
right

4079
02:37:17,510 --> 02:37:15,359
um

4080
02:37:19,510 --> 02:37:17,520
like i don't know very much about

4081
02:37:21,910 --> 02:37:19,520
actual mental illness right so i'm not

4082
02:37:26,870 --> 02:37:21,920
about to prescribe any way of dealing

4083
02:37:31,830 --> 02:37:29,510
i think a game could be an ingredient in

4084
02:37:34,070 --> 02:37:31,840
something but i should certainly

4085
02:37:35,990 --> 02:37:34,080
for the foreseeable future if i were to

4086
02:37:40,630 --> 02:37:36,000
plan some regime of how to deal with

4087
02:37:44,150 --> 02:37:42,630
to talk to who's very competent in

4088
02:37:47,190 --> 02:37:44,160
dealing with mental illness and who has

4089
02:37:50,150 --> 02:37:47,200
a lot of experience and who can make

4090
02:37:51,750 --> 02:37:50,160
uh very informed and very likely

4091
02:37:53,910 --> 02:37:51,760
beneficial choices about how to deal

4092
02:37:55,590 --> 02:37:53,920
with it and then among the choices that

4093
02:37:56,790 --> 02:37:55,600
that person picks

4094
02:37:58,309 --> 02:37:56,800
maybe there could be some game

4095
02:37:59,910 --> 02:37:58,319
approaches in there

4096
02:38:02,070 --> 02:37:59,920
right it's not like it's not like you

4097
02:38:03,910 --> 02:38:02,080
could play a game

4098
02:38:05,349 --> 02:38:03,920
that acts like a pill that you take that

4099
02:38:07,830 --> 02:38:05,359
would cure mental illness that's just

4100
02:38:09,910 --> 02:38:07,840
not gonna be a thing yeah it seems clear

4101
02:38:12,469 --> 02:38:09,920
that some video games for many people

4102
02:38:13,990 --> 02:38:12,479
are therapeutic they say this game got

4103
02:38:15,590 --> 02:38:14,000
me out of my depression this game helped

4104
02:38:17,349 --> 02:38:15,600
me see so-and-so from another

4105
02:38:19,750 --> 02:38:17,359
perspective oh yeah that was a thing i

4106
02:38:20,950 --> 02:38:19,760
want to say though too sure

4107
02:38:23,990 --> 02:38:20,960
um

4108
02:38:25,590 --> 02:38:24,000
they definitely can be very beneficial

4109
02:38:27,110 --> 02:38:25,600
before you get to the point of mental

4110
02:38:29,830 --> 02:38:27,120
illness right

4111
02:38:31,990 --> 02:38:29,840
um if if you were in danger of having

4112
02:38:33,830 --> 02:38:32,000
some kind of a spiral downward or just

4113
02:38:36,150 --> 02:38:33,840
even in making people's lives better

4114
02:38:38,070 --> 02:38:36,160
however

4115
02:38:40,830 --> 02:38:38,080
we don't really use them that way

4116
02:38:43,429 --> 02:38:40,840
and actually a lot of

4117
02:38:46,710 --> 02:38:43,439
games i think are net negative maybe

4118
02:38:48,469 --> 02:38:46,720
most games in that

4119
02:38:50,309 --> 02:38:48,479
they seem fun they seem interesting they

4120
02:38:52,309 --> 02:38:50,319
seem compelling and and maybe they are

4121
02:38:55,110 --> 02:38:52,319
those things in the short term

4122
02:38:57,590 --> 02:38:55,120
but they cause you to make trade-offs

4123
02:38:59,750 --> 02:38:57,600
that are bad in the long term right and

4124
02:39:01,030 --> 02:38:59,760
that make you un less happy in the long

4125
02:39:02,309 --> 02:39:01,040
term

4126
02:39:04,150 --> 02:39:02,319
right so if you just sit there playing

4127
02:39:06,309 --> 02:39:04,160
like world of warcraft every day for 10

4128
02:39:08,389 --> 02:39:06,319
years

4129
02:39:10,070 --> 02:39:08,399
was that really a good thing to do i

4130
02:39:11,910 --> 02:39:10,080
have to advise people against things

4131
02:39:14,790 --> 02:39:11,920
like that it doesn't seem very good to

4132
02:39:18,790 --> 02:39:16,870
it sounds similar to social media where

4133
02:39:20,630 --> 02:39:18,800
initially could be connecting connecting

4134
02:39:21,510 --> 02:39:20,640
you with your family and your friends

4135
02:39:24,710 --> 02:39:21,520
but then

4136
02:39:29,349 --> 02:39:24,720
maybe in week one even it becomes

4137
02:39:33,590 --> 02:39:31,110
yeah i mean there are many things in

4138
02:39:36,389 --> 02:39:33,600
life like that but i think

4139
02:39:38,389 --> 02:39:36,399
once we unpacked computers and software

4140
02:39:40,070 --> 02:39:38,399
we like discovered a whole bunch of new

4141
02:39:42,309 --> 02:39:40,080
ones right

4142
02:39:44,550 --> 02:39:42,319
social media is definitely one

4143
02:39:46,309 --> 02:39:44,560
um social media probably more dangerous

4144
02:39:48,550 --> 02:39:46,319
than video games right video games get a

4145
02:39:50,230 --> 02:39:48,560
bad rap but i think social media

4146
02:39:52,710 --> 02:39:50,240
is worse

4147
02:39:54,230 --> 02:39:52,720
um

4148
02:39:57,270 --> 02:39:54,240
but but games you think it should be

4149
02:40:03,270 --> 02:39:58,950
i don't know maybe

4150
02:40:06,469 --> 02:40:04,630
sorry if i'm putting you on the spot

4151
02:40:08,150 --> 02:40:06,479
it's just i'm curious no no no no i just

4152
02:40:10,630 --> 02:40:08,160
i don't know what i think with regard

4153
02:40:12,389 --> 02:40:10,640
because broadly speaking

4154
02:40:14,150 --> 02:40:12,399
i think we have way too much regulation

4155
02:40:16,230 --> 02:40:14,160
right now in too many places that are

4156
02:40:17,750 --> 02:40:16,240
unhelpful that doesn't mean there isn't

4157
02:40:20,950 --> 02:40:17,760
regulation that could be made that would

4158
02:40:21,830 --> 02:40:20,960
be helpful in specific places like so on

4159
02:40:24,550 --> 02:40:21,840
net

4160
02:40:26,309 --> 02:40:24,560
i think we need to delete a lot of laws

4161
02:40:28,710 --> 02:40:26,319
um

4162
02:40:30,550 --> 02:40:28,720
but maybe that's a place where we could

4163
02:40:36,070 --> 02:40:30,560
have some i don't know

4164
02:40:39,510 --> 02:40:38,389
yeah all right

4165
02:40:41,269 --> 02:40:39,520
james r

4166
02:40:43,349 --> 02:40:41,279
wants to know what are his thoughts on

4167
02:40:46,950 --> 02:40:43,359
mind uploading digital consciousness and

4168
02:40:52,710 --> 02:40:49,590
i think those ideas

4169
02:40:56,309 --> 02:40:54,469
again they're

4170
02:40:58,150 --> 02:40:56,319
we're in this world

4171
02:40:59,429 --> 02:40:58,160
where people get excited about ideas

4172
02:41:00,630 --> 02:40:59,439
like that that haven't been fully

4173
02:41:01,990 --> 02:41:00,640
thought out

4174
02:41:04,070 --> 02:41:02,000
all right so similar to the free will

4175
02:41:06,230 --> 02:41:04,080
question being simplistic yes it's too

4176
02:41:09,349 --> 02:41:06,240
simple so so let me let me at least say

4177
02:41:11,830 --> 02:41:09,359
why so that people don't get mad um so

4178
02:41:13,750 --> 02:41:11,840
uploading your brain into a computer

4179
02:41:15,510 --> 02:41:13,760
right and then you're supposed to be a

4180
02:41:16,870 --> 02:41:15,520
conscious dude who like walks around and

4181
02:41:18,309 --> 02:41:16,880
does all sorts of cool stuff inside the

4182
02:41:20,469 --> 02:41:18,319
computer all right well

4183
02:41:21,990 --> 02:41:20,479
that implies

4184
02:41:23,349 --> 02:41:22,000
that

4185
02:41:25,269 --> 02:41:23,359
thinking is what

4186
02:41:26,469 --> 02:41:25,279
makes you conscious because that's like

4187
02:41:28,389 --> 02:41:26,479
the computer would be doing simple

4188
02:41:30,710 --> 02:41:28,399
manipulation we already know that's not

4189
02:41:32,870 --> 02:41:30,720
true and in fact anyone who's

4190
02:41:34,870 --> 02:41:32,880
been done any successful meditation at

4191
02:41:36,469 --> 02:41:34,880
all for even like a minute

4192
02:41:37,830 --> 02:41:36,479
knows that thinking is not what makes

4193
02:41:39,990 --> 02:41:37,840
you conscious thinking is a thing that

4194
02:41:40,790 --> 02:41:40,000
you're conscious of right

4195
02:41:44,469 --> 02:41:40,800
so

4196
02:41:46,150 --> 02:41:44,479
you have to be talking about

4197
02:41:48,150 --> 02:41:46,160
replicating something besides the

4198
02:41:49,510 --> 02:41:48,160
thinking part that's actually the vast

4199
02:41:52,150 --> 02:41:49,520
majority of your experience okay so

4200
02:41:54,469 --> 02:41:52,160
that's part a part b

4201
02:41:58,309 --> 02:41:56,469
if that is suddenly conscious why why

4202
02:41:59,750 --> 02:41:58,319
are other things that computers are

4203
02:42:01,269 --> 02:41:59,760
already doing not conscious they're

4204
02:42:03,670 --> 02:42:01,279
pretty complicated

4205
02:42:05,269 --> 02:42:03,680
right um and if something a computer

4206
02:42:06,630 --> 02:42:05,279
does can be conscious

4207
02:42:08,710 --> 02:42:06,640
um

4208
02:42:10,950 --> 02:42:08,720
why

4209
02:42:13,750 --> 02:42:10,960
like what's a computation do you even

4210
02:42:16,230 --> 02:42:13,760
know like i actually don't understand to

4211
02:42:17,830 --> 02:42:16,240
this day what a computation is right i

4212
02:42:19,030 --> 02:42:17,840
still am trying to understand that and

4213
02:42:21,269 --> 02:42:19,040
so

4214
02:42:23,269 --> 02:42:21,279
there's this rhetorical magic doing a

4215
02:42:25,670 --> 02:42:23,279
lot of work where like oh if a computer

4216
02:42:27,269 --> 02:42:25,680
is computing things and simulating you

4217
02:42:28,550 --> 02:42:27,279
then that simulation will be conscious

4218
02:42:30,710 --> 02:42:28,560
and it's like

4219
02:42:32,309 --> 02:42:30,720
if that's true

4220
02:42:33,590 --> 02:42:32,319
then it has some implications that you

4221
02:42:35,190 --> 02:42:33,600
haven't thought about

4222
02:42:37,110 --> 02:42:35,200
that maybe other things are conscious

4223
02:42:38,550 --> 02:42:37,120
that you don't think are conscious or

4224
02:42:41,590 --> 02:42:38,560
that maybe

4225
02:42:45,190 --> 02:42:43,750
you know maybe maybe material has

4226
02:42:47,269 --> 02:42:45,200
aspects to it

4227
02:42:48,870 --> 02:42:47,279
if you have a materialist view maybe

4228
02:42:51,830 --> 02:42:48,880
material has aspects to it that you

4229
02:42:53,670 --> 02:42:51,840
haven't considered right and so

4230
02:42:56,070 --> 02:42:53,680
um it's i don't want to try to make the

4231
02:42:57,110 --> 02:42:56,080
full complete case here for that because

4232
02:42:59,030 --> 02:42:57,120
i haven't

4233
02:43:01,349 --> 02:42:59,040
prepared it or thought about it lately

4234
02:43:02,870 --> 02:43:01,359
um but i i will say one of the speeches

4235
02:43:04,389 --> 02:43:02,880
that i gave a

4236
02:43:06,790 --> 02:43:04,399
private version of a year ago that i

4237
02:43:07,990 --> 02:43:06,800
want to give a full version of is um you

4238
02:43:10,150 --> 02:43:08,000
know one version of this is the

4239
02:43:12,309 --> 02:43:10,160
simulation argument is has been pretty

4240
02:43:14,389 --> 02:43:12,319
popular among people who

4241
02:43:16,070 --> 02:43:14,399
who talk about stuff and that is like oh

4242
02:43:18,309 --> 02:43:16,080
if you do the math it's actually likely

4243
02:43:20,469 --> 02:43:18,319
that we're living in a simulation right

4244
02:43:21,830 --> 02:43:20,479
now that's in a computer right and so

4245
02:43:23,190 --> 02:43:21,840
therefore of course you could simulate

4246
02:43:25,670 --> 02:43:23,200
yourself in another computer because you

4247
02:43:27,110 --> 02:43:25,680
already are in one and like

4248
02:43:29,750 --> 02:43:27,120
i think that argument is basically

4249
02:43:30,710 --> 02:43:29,760
meaningless and i can make a pretty good

4250
02:43:31,750 --> 02:43:30,720
case

4251
02:43:34,309 --> 02:43:31,760
as to

4252
02:43:36,150 --> 02:43:34,319
why it doesn't actually mean anything

4253
02:43:38,950 --> 02:43:36,160
but it probably takes an hour to make

4254
02:43:43,110 --> 02:43:41,110
or more or two hours

4255
02:43:44,550 --> 02:43:43,120
yeah the next question comes from tom

4256
02:43:46,469 --> 02:43:44,560
this is quite long but most of it is

4257
02:43:48,790 --> 02:43:46,479
plotted thank you kurt for arranging

4258
02:43:50,309 --> 02:43:48,800
this interview a very pleasant surprise

4259
02:43:51,750 --> 02:43:50,319
which has motivated me to comment for

4260
02:43:53,670 --> 02:43:51,760
the first time

4261
02:43:54,950 --> 02:43:53,680
thank you mr blow for your willingness

4262
02:43:57,990 --> 02:43:54,960
to be interviewed here are my two

4263
02:43:59,670 --> 02:43:58,000
questions what further insights into the

4264
02:44:03,110 --> 02:43:59,680
tension between the analytical and

4265
02:44:05,190 --> 02:44:03,120
rational versus intuitive slash supra

4266
02:44:07,429 --> 02:44:05,200
rational mindsets presented in the

4267
02:44:09,590 --> 02:44:07,439
witness have you seen

4268
02:44:12,230 --> 02:44:09,600
have you had since its initial release

4269
02:44:14,389 --> 02:44:12,240
okay wait let me think about how to

4270
02:44:16,150 --> 02:44:14,399
yeah please reread the sentence at least

4271
02:44:18,070 --> 02:44:16,160
what further insights into the tension

4272
02:44:19,590 --> 02:44:18,080
between the analytical mind and the

4273
02:44:21,269 --> 02:44:19,600
intuitive mind

4274
02:44:23,990 --> 02:44:21,279
presented in the witness have you had

4275
02:44:25,750 --> 02:44:24,000
since its initial release

4276
02:44:27,429 --> 02:44:25,760
i i mean i understand the question i

4277
02:44:29,750 --> 02:44:27,439
would say that i don't

4278
02:44:33,190 --> 02:44:29,760
break it down that way for myself i

4279
02:44:35,349 --> 02:44:33,200
understand so that is um

4280
02:44:37,349 --> 02:44:35,359
that is a dichotomy

4281
02:44:39,670 --> 02:44:37,359
that we toss around

4282
02:44:41,510 --> 02:44:39,680
like our society has tossed around and

4283
02:44:43,030 --> 02:44:41,520
has found to be useful in thinking about

4284
02:44:44,950 --> 02:44:43,040
things sometimes

4285
02:44:46,950 --> 02:44:44,960
it's not really the way i thought about

4286
02:44:49,269 --> 02:44:46,960
what i was doing there

4287
02:44:51,830 --> 02:44:49,279
necessarily or

4288
02:44:53,030 --> 02:44:51,840
maybe it's a little bit related but

4289
02:44:55,190 --> 02:44:53,040
but again

4290
02:44:57,670 --> 02:44:55,200
um i wouldn't be satisfied by thinking

4291
02:44:59,190 --> 02:44:57,680
about things in that way

4292
02:45:01,190 --> 02:44:59,200
yeah okay then his second question is

4293
02:45:03,670 --> 02:45:01,200
have you heard of jonathan pagel's work

4294
02:45:06,389 --> 02:45:03,680
concerning symbols understood as basic

4295
02:45:08,870 --> 02:45:06,399
structures of reality

4296
02:45:12,150 --> 02:45:08,880
um i've heard of it i'm not familiar

4297
02:45:15,030 --> 02:45:13,750
yeah he said i would like this is the

4298
02:45:17,510 --> 02:45:15,040
end of it it's not a question i would

4299
02:45:19,110 --> 02:45:17,520
like to kindly ask you kurt to send my

4300
02:45:32,389 --> 02:45:19,120
and many other people around here

4301
02:45:35,910 --> 02:45:33,830
well that's great it's always nice to

4302
02:45:38,389 --> 02:45:35,920
hear you know like

4303
02:45:40,309 --> 02:45:38,399
we work so hard on these things

4304
02:45:41,269 --> 02:45:40,319
you know it's it's always good to hear

4305
02:45:44,790 --> 02:45:41,279
when

4306
02:45:47,110 --> 02:45:44,800
someone

4307
02:45:51,190 --> 02:45:47,120
chris marola any puzzle games in the

4308
02:45:55,830 --> 02:45:53,750
well um so right around the time the

4309
02:45:58,389 --> 02:45:55,840
witness came out a couple months later a

4310
02:46:01,190 --> 02:45:58,399
game came out called steven sausage roll

4311
02:46:02,630 --> 02:46:01,200
which sounds like a very silly name

4312
02:46:07,670 --> 02:46:02,640
it really is one of the best puzzle

4313
02:46:11,110 --> 02:46:09,510
i recommend people play it

4314
02:46:13,750 --> 02:46:11,120
i i don't want to spoil anything i can't

4315
02:46:18,710 --> 02:46:16,550
you may bounce off it it's pretty hard

4316
02:46:20,150 --> 02:46:18,720
but if you're interested in puzzle games

4317
02:46:22,830 --> 02:46:20,160
it's amazing

4318
02:46:24,950 --> 02:46:22,840
i got to play it actually

4319
02:46:26,710 --> 02:46:24,960
before uh the witness came out because i

4320
02:46:29,910 --> 02:46:26,720
was playing a pre-release version and i

4321
02:46:31,429 --> 02:46:29,920
had this feeling like wow this might be

4322
02:46:32,550 --> 02:46:31,439
better than the kind of stuff that i'm

4323
02:46:34,469 --> 02:46:32,560
doing

4324
02:46:36,830 --> 02:46:34,479
that's i mean that's

4325
02:46:39,830 --> 02:46:36,840
pretty amazing to see

4326
02:46:41,269 --> 02:46:39,840
but also worrisome it's like oh man is

4327
02:46:44,710 --> 02:46:41,279
this thing that i'm working on gonna

4328
02:46:46,790 --> 02:46:44,720
actually be good um

4329
02:46:47,670 --> 02:46:46,800
there's some other games that came out

4330
02:46:52,070 --> 02:46:47,680
since

4331
02:46:55,590 --> 02:46:53,750
i mean i really like those actronics

4332
02:46:57,670 --> 02:46:55,600
games which are kind of puzzly they're

4333
02:46:59,349 --> 02:46:57,680
kind of a lot about programming

4334
02:47:01,190 --> 02:46:59,359
there's one particular game of his

4335
02:47:02,630 --> 02:47:01,200
called opus magnum that i think is very

4336
02:47:04,070 --> 02:47:02,640
approachable

4337
02:47:06,230 --> 02:47:04,080
um

4338
02:47:10,950 --> 02:47:06,240
so

4339
02:47:13,830 --> 02:47:12,230
you just said

4340
02:47:15,910 --> 02:47:13,840
man i don't know if my game will be any

4341
02:47:18,150 --> 02:47:15,920
good now when you say that what are you

4342
02:47:21,030 --> 02:47:18,160
referring to as being good is it if

4343
02:47:23,349 --> 02:47:21,040
people enjoy them is it if people like

4344
02:47:24,389 --> 02:47:23,359
that's an overstatement because

4345
02:47:25,590 --> 02:47:24,399
like

4346
02:47:27,190 --> 02:47:25,600
the feeling was more it's an

4347
02:47:28,469 --> 02:47:27,200
oversimplification because i knew it was

4348
02:47:29,349 --> 02:47:28,479
good right

4349
02:47:31,670 --> 02:47:29,359
um

4350
02:47:35,269 --> 02:47:31,680
for my you know again for my metric of

4351
02:47:39,349 --> 02:47:35,279
what's good um but

4352
02:47:43,750 --> 02:47:42,389
there there's a certain uh

4353
02:47:45,349 --> 02:47:43,760
way

4354
02:47:47,590 --> 02:47:45,359
that we went into at length before about

4355
02:47:49,110 --> 02:47:47,600
going into a possibility space of a game

4356
02:47:51,510 --> 02:47:49,120
of like what how things work and

4357
02:47:53,670 --> 02:47:51,520
discovering what can happen

4358
02:47:55,190 --> 02:47:53,680
from that and and finding the best

4359
02:47:56,550 --> 02:47:55,200
things and giving them to the player

4360
02:47:57,349 --> 02:47:56,560
right and

4361
02:47:59,269 --> 02:47:57,359
um

4362
02:48:01,349 --> 02:47:59,279
i had done a bunch of talks where i

4363
02:48:03,030 --> 02:48:01,359
discussed that process but i hadn't

4364
02:48:05,190 --> 02:48:03,040
really seen much in the way of other

4365
02:48:07,030 --> 02:48:05,200
games that did that and steven sausage

4366
02:48:08,790 --> 02:48:07,040
roll actually does that

4367
02:48:11,030 --> 02:48:08,800
um

4368
02:48:15,510 --> 02:48:11,040
and

4369
02:48:15,520 --> 02:48:19,269
very happy that i got to play it so

4370
02:48:24,790 --> 02:48:21,349
it does that in a different way i would

4371
02:48:27,349 --> 02:48:24,800
say than the witness did and so

4372
02:48:29,030 --> 02:48:27,359
it was like wow

4373
02:48:32,870 --> 02:48:29,040
somebody else is doing the same kind of

4374
02:48:36,870 --> 02:48:34,870
whereas i thought i was sort of the only

4375
02:48:37,910 --> 02:48:36,880
person doing it i guess is the feeling

4376
02:48:39,269 --> 02:48:37,920
right so

4377
02:48:41,190 --> 02:48:39,279
it's a good feeling because you don't

4378
02:48:43,269 --> 02:48:41,200
feel as alone anymore

4379
02:48:45,190 --> 02:48:43,279
have you reached out to the developer

4380
02:48:49,110 --> 02:48:45,200
oh um i mean he sent me a pre-release

4381
02:48:51,190 --> 02:48:49,120
copy so you know he's someone who i've

4382
02:48:54,790 --> 02:48:51,200
never met in person but you know knew

4383
02:48:56,950 --> 02:48:54,800
about and we'd corresponded and stuff

4384
02:48:59,670 --> 02:48:56,960
champion chap asks i seem to remember

4385
02:49:01,349 --> 02:48:59,680
john saying he has fantasia

4386
02:49:03,269 --> 02:49:01,359
could you ask him

4387
02:49:05,269 --> 02:49:03,279
if he if well if he does and does it

4388
02:49:06,710 --> 02:49:05,279
show in the game design

4389
02:49:09,510 --> 02:49:06,720
um

4390
02:49:11,830 --> 02:49:09,520
yes we'll define for the people out

4391
02:49:16,150 --> 02:49:13,510
this is something it's a relatively new

4392
02:49:17,269 --> 02:49:16,160
concept i think from the past couple

4393
02:49:18,870 --> 02:49:17,279
decades

4394
02:49:20,710 --> 02:49:18,880
um

4395
02:49:22,150 --> 02:49:20,720
uh but the idea is

4396
02:49:23,429 --> 02:49:22,160
um

4397
02:49:25,429 --> 02:49:23,439
some people

4398
02:49:26,870 --> 02:49:25,439
when they close their eyes and you ask

4399
02:49:29,269 --> 02:49:26,880
them to visualize something they

4400
02:49:30,389 --> 02:49:29,279
actually see a picture of some kind i do

4401
02:49:32,150 --> 02:49:30,399
not

4402
02:49:34,230 --> 02:49:32,160
i don't

4403
02:49:36,550 --> 02:49:34,240
um it's not that i can't because i have

4404
02:49:39,190 --> 02:49:36,560
in rare occasions seen quite vivid

4405
02:49:41,750 --> 02:49:39,200
mental pictures but from day to day i

4406
02:49:45,429 --> 02:49:41,760
simply don't have a picture

4407
02:49:48,630 --> 02:49:47,110
does that show up in the design i don't

4408
02:49:51,510 --> 02:49:48,640
know i mean

4409
02:49:52,389 --> 02:49:51,520
probably in some way because it's part

4410
02:50:03,030 --> 02:49:52,399
of

4411
02:50:08,150 --> 02:50:05,349
brian mauch asks

4412
02:50:11,110 --> 02:50:08,160
ask why the industry has gone to

4413
02:50:12,870 --> 02:50:11,120
and why studios and publishers are

4414
02:50:14,070 --> 02:50:12,880
comfortable releasing unfinished games

4415
02:50:16,070 --> 02:50:14,080
full of bugs

4416
02:50:18,309 --> 02:50:16,080
at full triple a prices

4417
02:50:20,150 --> 02:50:18,319
because they can because people can buy

4418
02:50:22,710 --> 02:50:20,160
them but also games have legitimately

4419
02:50:24,790 --> 02:50:22,720
gotten harder and harder to make

4420
02:50:28,550 --> 02:50:24,800
because they're so complicated and

4421
02:50:42,070 --> 02:50:31,269
i

4422
02:50:49,910 --> 02:50:42,080
and

4423
02:50:52,309 --> 02:50:49,920
that seems to be succeeding but who know

4424
02:50:54,469 --> 02:50:52,319
like having a programming language be

4425
02:50:57,590 --> 02:50:54,479
adopted by the world is like a whole

4426
02:51:08,230 --> 02:50:57,600
thing and who knows if that will happen

4427
02:51:11,910 --> 02:51:10,150
also the thing to say is that people

4428
02:51:13,510 --> 02:51:11,920
have been saying some variation of that

4429
02:51:16,469 --> 02:51:13,520
the entire time i've been in the games

4430
02:51:19,910 --> 02:51:16,479
industry right it used to be

4431
02:51:21,910 --> 02:51:19,920
aaa games are so unimaginative and

4432
02:51:23,590 --> 02:51:21,920
uh

4433
02:51:24,630 --> 02:51:23,600
you know don't don't do anything

4434
02:51:25,510 --> 02:51:24,640
creative

4435
02:51:31,349 --> 02:51:25,520
um

4436
02:51:32,950 --> 02:51:31,359
it used to be well there was a time when

4437
02:51:35,030 --> 02:51:32,960
it was that they were super buggy when

4438
02:51:37,190 --> 02:51:35,040
we were first starting to do 3d

4439
02:51:38,550 --> 02:51:37,200
uh because it was so hard and then we

4440
02:51:40,150 --> 02:51:38,560
kind of figured it out and they became

4441
02:51:41,590 --> 02:51:40,160
less buggy for a while but now they're

4442
02:51:43,429 --> 02:51:41,600
more buggy again because they're more

4443
02:51:45,830 --> 02:51:43,439
complicated um

4444
02:51:48,469 --> 02:51:45,840
i'm not sure that games are uniquely bad

4445
02:51:49,590 --> 02:51:48,479
in that respect now it's just aaa doing

4446
02:51:52,630 --> 02:51:49,600
their thing

4447
02:51:56,950 --> 02:51:54,950
james jones asks do you have any ideas

4448
02:51:58,950 --> 02:51:56,960
on using neuralink or any other brain

4449
02:52:01,990 --> 02:51:58,960
software interfaces in the future

4450
02:52:03,750 --> 02:52:02,000
no i mean with that kind of thing

4451
02:52:06,150 --> 02:52:03,760
what you have in your mind right now is

4452
02:52:07,269 --> 02:52:06,160
like what you imagine it might be like

4453
02:52:09,429 --> 02:52:07,279
you don't know what it's going to be

4454
02:52:11,910 --> 02:52:09,439
like right and you can't design for

4455
02:52:15,510 --> 02:52:11,920
something unless you know what it is so

4456
02:52:19,429 --> 02:52:15,520
we just have to see

4457
02:52:21,269 --> 02:52:19,439
okay ein ethne says oh exciting as i'm a

4458
02:52:23,110 --> 02:52:21,279
software engineer question for him do

4459
02:52:25,269 --> 02:52:23,120
you use machine learning and or ai

4460
02:52:27,590 --> 02:52:25,279
development when working on game design

4461
02:52:29,590 --> 02:52:27,600
and development if so how

4462
02:52:31,990 --> 02:52:29,600
uh not on any current projects there's

4463
02:52:33,590 --> 02:52:32,000
one that we were doing um

4464
02:52:34,870 --> 02:52:33,600
for a little bit but

4465
02:52:36,870 --> 02:52:34,880
it turned out we were working on too

4466
02:52:39,670 --> 02:52:36,880
many things at once so that's on pause

4467
02:52:41,590 --> 02:52:39,680
right now but we were using it to

4468
02:52:44,950 --> 02:52:41,600
try and generate

4469
02:52:46,469 --> 02:52:44,960
facial animation from uh vocal tracks so

4470
02:52:48,150 --> 02:52:46,479
a little bit the opposite of what i was

4471
02:52:50,389 --> 02:52:48,160
talking about before but like if you

4472
02:52:52,469 --> 02:52:50,399
have a voice actor read some lines

4473
02:52:53,830 --> 02:52:52,479
and it's well acted and all that stuff

4474
02:52:55,429 --> 02:52:53,840
now you want the character on the screen

4475
02:52:58,790 --> 02:52:55,439
to like say the lines and have their

4476
02:53:00,630 --> 02:52:58,800
face move in the right way there's

4477
02:53:02,630 --> 02:53:00,640
historically you might try to record

4478
02:53:03,750 --> 02:53:02,640
that by having the actor like wear all

4479
02:53:04,710 --> 02:53:03,760
this stuff

4480
02:53:06,469 --> 02:53:04,720
and then

4481
02:53:08,150 --> 02:53:06,479
you know but but there's a lot of

4482
02:53:10,469 --> 02:53:08,160
drawbacks to that

4483
02:53:13,510 --> 02:53:10,479
so we were like hey can we just generate

4484
02:53:15,830 --> 02:53:13,520
the animation and we had uh some

4485
02:53:18,309 --> 02:53:15,840
beginning of that but we hadn't gotten

4486
02:53:20,230 --> 02:53:18,319
very far before we pushed pause on the

4487
02:53:21,750 --> 02:53:20,240
project

4488
02:53:23,510 --> 02:53:21,760
there's this great youtube channel

4489
02:53:25,349 --> 02:53:23,520
called two minute papers

4490
02:53:27,349 --> 02:53:25,359
do you subscribe to it

4491
02:53:30,070 --> 02:53:27,359
no but i've seen a couple of them i

4492
02:53:31,990 --> 02:53:30,080
think man like every week or so it makes

4493
02:53:34,070 --> 02:53:32,000
me wonder man the implications of this

4494
02:53:36,309 --> 02:53:34,080
for game development but it's also like

4495
02:53:37,990 --> 02:53:36,319
you hear about there's a pill that works

4496
02:53:39,830 --> 02:53:38,000
in rats such that they can eat as much

4497
02:53:41,750 --> 02:53:39,840
food as they want and they don't get

4498
02:53:44,230 --> 02:53:41,760
fat and then you then you wonder well

4499
02:53:47,429 --> 02:53:44,240
man that'll be great once it comes to

4500
02:53:48,710 --> 02:53:47,439
humans and then it does way too long

4501
02:53:50,630 --> 02:53:48,720
yeah

4502
02:53:52,550 --> 02:53:50,640
okay so this guy

4503
02:53:55,190 --> 02:53:52,560
this guy named

4504
02:53:57,349 --> 02:53:55,200
johannes norbaca from a programming

4505
02:53:59,910 --> 02:53:57,359
language designers perspective

4506
02:54:01,830 --> 02:53:59,920
where jai has been described as

4507
02:54:03,670 --> 02:54:01,840
data oriented

4508
02:54:06,710 --> 02:54:03,680
what is his opinion on other data

4509
02:54:08,150 --> 02:54:06,720
oriented languages like erlang elixir

4510
02:54:09,670 --> 02:54:08,160
clojure

4511
02:54:11,590 --> 02:54:09,680
and

4512
02:54:13,510 --> 02:54:11,600
in context to that what languages

4513
02:54:15,670 --> 02:54:13,520
virtual machines and paradigms inspired

4514
02:54:17,429 --> 02:54:15,680
you while you were designing jai

4515
02:54:19,030 --> 02:54:17,439
so how does it compare contrast to other

4516
02:54:22,309 --> 02:54:19,040
data oriented all those languages

4517
02:54:23,750 --> 02:54:22,319
mentioned seemed very different to me so

4518
02:54:25,510 --> 02:54:23,760
and and i

4519
02:54:27,990 --> 02:54:25,520
some of them i know more about how they

4520
02:54:29,750 --> 02:54:28,000
work than others so i i find it hard to

4521
02:54:30,950 --> 02:54:29,760
make a statement that crosses all of

4522
02:54:33,429 --> 02:54:30,960
those um

4523
02:54:35,910 --> 02:54:33,439
i also would say i wouldn't necessarily

4524
02:54:37,590 --> 02:54:35,920
say data oriented is

4525
02:54:38,790 --> 02:54:37,600
the motivator behind what i'm doing i

4526
02:54:41,349 --> 02:54:38,800
think it's

4527
02:54:44,309 --> 02:54:41,359
compatible with a data oriented approach

4528
02:54:47,030 --> 02:54:44,319
but i wouldn't say that that's

4529
02:54:49,590 --> 02:54:47,040
the lens from which it's being designed

4530
02:54:54,790 --> 02:54:49,600
um

4531
02:54:57,510 --> 02:54:55,990
it's going to be hard to say this in a

4532
02:54:59,429 --> 02:54:57,520
way that's going to be taken correctly

4533
02:55:00,950 --> 02:54:59,439
but like

4534
02:55:03,349 --> 02:55:00,960
lisp and

4535
02:55:05,349 --> 02:55:03,359
standard ml of new jersey which is like

4536
02:55:07,349 --> 02:55:05,359
a later functional language that i used

4537
02:55:09,750 --> 02:55:07,359
in the early 90s um

4538
02:55:11,830 --> 02:55:09,760
our inspirations but not in any obvious

4539
02:55:14,469 --> 02:55:11,840
way because the way this language works

4540
02:55:15,429 --> 02:55:14,479
is nothing like the way those work but

4541
02:55:17,990 --> 02:55:15,439
um

4542
02:55:19,590 --> 02:55:18,000
like lisp especially was a messy

4543
02:55:20,870 --> 02:55:19,600
programming language that was pretty bad

4544
02:55:22,550 --> 02:55:20,880
in a lot of ways like there's a lot of

4545
02:55:24,230 --> 02:55:22,560
lisp evangelists that say like oh it's

4546
02:55:26,150 --> 02:55:24,240
great it's actually pretty bad in a lot

4547
02:55:28,309 --> 02:55:26,160
of ways but it had some things about it

4548
02:55:31,110 --> 02:55:28,319
that were really good and that never

4549
02:55:32,550 --> 02:55:31,120
really were reproduced

4550
02:55:35,030 --> 02:55:32,560
at least certainly not in systems

4551
02:55:35,830 --> 02:55:35,040
languages like c

4552
02:55:38,309 --> 02:55:35,840
and

4553
02:55:40,150 --> 02:55:38,319
the failure to reproduce those things

4554
02:55:41,830 --> 02:55:40,160
has led to a lot of practical problems

4555
02:55:44,150 --> 02:55:41,840
today

4556
02:55:45,990 --> 02:55:44,160
so for example in in any interpreted

4557
02:55:49,110 --> 02:55:46,000
language so even like python today or

4558
02:55:51,030 --> 02:55:49,120
something but going back to lisp

4559
02:55:52,790 --> 02:55:51,040
you don't need to have a build process

4560
02:55:55,190 --> 02:55:52,800
to know what the program is it's just

4561
02:55:56,630 --> 02:55:55,200
like whatever file you load first loads

4562
02:55:57,990 --> 02:55:56,640
some other files

4563
02:56:00,150 --> 02:55:58,000
and then it starts running because it's

4564
02:56:02,550 --> 02:56:00,160
an interpreted language and so

4565
02:56:04,150 --> 02:56:02,560
your program defines itself in that way

4566
02:56:06,710 --> 02:56:04,160
right whereas in languages like c and

4567
02:56:09,590 --> 02:56:06,720
all the languages that came down from c

4568
02:56:11,349 --> 02:56:09,600
that's not true you like need an entire

4569
02:56:13,030 --> 02:56:11,359
at least one probably multiple

4570
02:56:15,030 --> 02:56:13,040
programming languages outside your

4571
02:56:16,950 --> 02:56:15,040
original language to say what the

4572
02:56:18,870 --> 02:56:16,960
program is to define what all the files

4573
02:56:21,830 --> 02:56:18,880
are and how they get put together

4574
02:56:24,309 --> 02:56:21,840
and that's a very severe deficiency

4575
02:56:26,710 --> 02:56:24,319
actually but nobody seems to take that

4576
02:56:29,910 --> 02:56:26,720
deficiency seriously but we all suffer

4577
02:56:31,349 --> 02:56:29,920
from it all the time so um

4578
02:56:33,429 --> 02:56:31,359
it's things like that it's like okay

4579
02:56:35,190 --> 02:56:33,439
let's do a systems language but let's

4580
02:56:38,309 --> 02:56:35,200
take this good part about lisp that we

4581
02:56:40,150 --> 02:56:38,319
figured out in like freaking 1965

4582
02:56:41,349 --> 02:56:40,160
right and actually bring that to these

4583
02:56:42,550 --> 02:56:41,359
languages

4584
02:56:46,070 --> 02:56:42,560
um

4585
02:56:49,910 --> 02:56:47,910
laura labu wants to know what connects

4586
02:56:54,230 --> 02:56:49,920
him for what connects you john to

4587
02:56:56,070 --> 02:56:54,240
non-dualist teachers like rupert spyra

4588
02:56:57,990 --> 02:56:56,080
what connects me i mean aren't we all

4589
02:56:59,590 --> 02:56:58,000
connected right

4590
02:57:03,030 --> 02:56:59,600
um

4591
02:57:08,950 --> 02:57:06,790
you know i i ran into rupert's teachings

4592
02:57:10,870 --> 02:57:08,960
somewhere and i resonated

4593
02:57:16,469 --> 02:57:10,880
with them quite well

4594
02:57:20,150 --> 02:57:18,070
i don't know i don't know what more i

4595
02:57:21,030 --> 02:57:20,160
don't know why it resonated with you

4596
02:57:23,030 --> 02:57:21,040
well

4597
02:57:30,230 --> 02:57:23,040
i wouldn't even say that i just would

4598
02:57:30,240 --> 02:57:32,790
um

4599
02:57:37,269 --> 02:57:34,630
it's very hard to say things about this

4600
02:57:39,110 --> 02:57:37,279
without feeling like i'm telling people

4601
02:57:40,950 --> 02:57:39,120
what they should do or what they should

4602
02:57:44,150 --> 02:57:40,960
resonate with or

4603
02:57:46,309 --> 02:57:44,160
etcetera right it's your own opinion

4604
02:57:48,230 --> 02:57:46,319
yeah i mean i think all of us are drawn

4605
02:57:49,269 --> 02:57:48,240
to things and

4606
02:57:51,110 --> 02:57:49,279
you know

4607
02:57:52,070 --> 02:57:51,120
repelled by other things

4608
02:57:54,630 --> 02:57:52,080
um

4609
02:57:59,030 --> 02:57:54,640
i wouldn't say

4610
02:58:06,070 --> 02:58:01,750
like sometimes the impulses that draw us

4611
02:58:09,910 --> 02:58:08,469
impulses to be respected and paid

4612
02:58:12,630 --> 02:58:09,920
attention to and sometimes those

4613
02:58:13,590 --> 02:58:12,640
impulses are like

4614
02:58:15,750 --> 02:58:13,600
you know

4615
02:58:17,429 --> 02:58:15,760
shallower and

4616
02:58:20,309 --> 02:58:17,439
maybe things that we would be better to

4617
02:58:24,070 --> 02:58:20,319
do without right and so

4618
02:58:26,150 --> 02:58:24,080
um so i don't think like it's a very

4619
02:58:27,670 --> 02:58:26,160
contemporary statement to say oh well

4620
02:58:29,110 --> 02:58:27,680
people just like different things and

4621
02:58:31,030 --> 02:58:29,120
it's all equally good i don't think it's

4622
02:58:34,469 --> 02:58:31,040
actually all equally good

4623
02:58:39,510 --> 02:58:36,469
and i think that this idea that it's all

4624
02:58:41,590 --> 02:58:39,520
equally good is kind of part of why

4625
02:58:42,710 --> 02:58:41,600
society we're at a stagnant point right

4626
02:58:45,349 --> 02:58:42,720
now

4627
02:58:48,150 --> 02:58:45,359
um but all that said

4628
02:58:50,150 --> 02:58:48,160
i it is a rather personal thing

4629
02:58:55,110 --> 02:58:50,160
what

4630
02:58:55,990 --> 02:58:55,120
with me and

4631
02:58:58,150 --> 02:58:56,000
um

4632
02:59:01,990 --> 02:58:58,160
to try to project that on onto other

4633
02:59:04,630 --> 02:59:02,000
people i don't think is my job and so if

4634
02:59:06,950 --> 02:59:04,640
i make a game that

4635
02:59:09,030 --> 02:59:06,960
deals with material like this it's a

4636
02:59:10,150 --> 02:59:09,040
challenge to do that without attempting

4637
02:59:12,389 --> 02:59:10,160
to

4638
02:59:14,469 --> 02:59:12,399
throw throw it at you

4639
02:59:15,990 --> 02:59:14,479
so that it tries to stick or something

4640
02:59:17,429 --> 02:59:16,000
right that's not

4641
02:59:18,150 --> 02:59:17,439
you know it's a different thing it's

4642
02:59:19,910 --> 02:59:18,160
like oh you're not trying to

4643
02:59:22,150 --> 02:59:19,920
indoctrinate anyone or nor do you want

4644
02:59:23,349 --> 02:59:22,160
it to feel like that yeah it's just like

4645
02:59:25,990 --> 02:59:23,359
hey

4646
02:59:27,590 --> 02:59:26,000
look at this thing and

4647
02:59:29,349 --> 02:59:27,600
if you want to

4648
02:59:30,550 --> 02:59:29,359
and maybe there's an opportunity for you

4649
02:59:32,469 --> 02:59:30,560
to have

4650
02:59:33,990 --> 02:59:32,479
some kind of feeling like i had in the

4651
02:59:36,309 --> 02:59:34,000
process of encountering this material

4652
02:59:38,950 --> 02:59:36,319
but maybe not right and if not that's

4653
02:59:41,190 --> 02:59:38,960
cool but if so that's great

4654
02:59:43,030 --> 02:59:41,200
right and so

4655
02:59:44,630 --> 02:59:43,040
maybe we've gone far afield from the

4656
02:59:46,150 --> 02:59:44,640
original question but

4657
02:59:48,870 --> 02:59:46,160
that's how i feel about it

4658
02:59:51,670 --> 02:59:48,880
you also mentioned that this insistence

4659
02:59:53,510 --> 02:59:51,680
that there is no

4660
02:59:55,510 --> 02:59:53,520
skill or competence or that we're all

4661
02:59:57,429 --> 02:59:55,520
equal in some manner is one of the

4662
02:59:59,830 --> 02:59:57,439
reasons why we're at a societal

4663
03:00:02,230 --> 02:59:59,840
stagnation point okay so firstly what's

4664
03:00:03,269 --> 03:00:02,240
meant by this stagnation and then how is

4665
03:00:12,389 --> 03:00:03,279
it

4666
03:00:14,389 --> 03:00:12,399
okay so to go back to that insistence

4667
03:00:15,750 --> 03:00:14,399
it comes from something that's true

4668
03:00:18,469 --> 03:00:15,760
originally and it's just over

4669
03:00:20,150 --> 03:00:18,479
extrapolated right the thing that's true

4670
03:00:22,630 --> 03:00:20,160
is that

4671
03:00:25,910 --> 03:00:22,640
you know we're all born here and none of

4672
03:00:27,830 --> 03:00:25,920
us is better than anybody else and

4673
03:00:29,910 --> 03:00:27,840
we're all equivalent to each other in

4674
03:00:33,750 --> 03:00:29,920
some way right there but for the grace

4675
03:00:35,510 --> 03:00:33,760
of god go i kind of realization right um

4676
03:00:37,590 --> 03:00:35,520
but that doesn't mean you can't make bad

4677
03:00:45,670 --> 03:00:37,600
choices and that doesn't mean that

4678
03:00:49,830 --> 03:00:47,510
i mean okay see when you talk start

4679
03:00:57,349 --> 03:00:49,840
talking about spiritual stuff

4680
03:00:57,359 --> 03:01:00,870
let me just

4681
03:01:03,990 --> 03:01:02,550
when you start talking about spiritual

4682
03:01:06,790 --> 03:01:04,000
stuff

4683
03:01:08,309 --> 03:01:06,800
you almost can't say anything because

4684
03:01:10,150 --> 03:01:08,319
what even what i just said is not

4685
03:01:12,790 --> 03:01:10,160
actually true that you can't

4686
03:01:14,550 --> 03:01:12,800
of course you can't make bad choices

4687
03:01:18,070 --> 03:01:14,560
um it's actually not possible to make

4688
03:01:22,710 --> 03:01:20,550
if you go to the world

4689
03:01:24,710 --> 03:01:22,720
of human beings just trying to do human

4690
03:01:26,710 --> 03:01:24,720
being life stuff then you can make bad

4691
03:01:30,150 --> 03:01:26,720
choices right so

4692
03:01:35,510 --> 03:01:33,670
we we somehow have a society where

4693
03:01:38,550 --> 03:01:35,520
we kind of want to think that that's not

4694
03:01:40,630 --> 03:01:38,560
true like if somebody

4695
03:01:43,750 --> 03:01:40,640
if somebody ends up in an unfortunate

4696
03:01:46,230 --> 03:01:43,760
place it's because of the forces that

4697
03:01:49,429 --> 03:01:46,240
were acting on them right they were

4698
03:01:51,349 --> 03:01:49,439
under privileged and had a bad

4699
03:01:53,670 --> 03:01:51,359
you know

4700
03:01:55,429 --> 03:01:53,680
were under you fell into the undertow of

4701
03:01:57,670 --> 03:01:55,439
society whatever right

4702
03:01:59,110 --> 03:01:57,680
and all that is true

4703
03:02:02,790 --> 03:01:59,120
to some degree

4704
03:02:03,590 --> 03:02:02,800
but at the same time

4705
03:02:07,750 --> 03:02:03,600
if

4706
03:02:11,830 --> 03:02:07,760
this idea that people are

4707
03:02:15,190 --> 03:02:11,840
also responsible for themselves

4708
03:02:17,349 --> 03:02:15,200
there's no energy to go to a good place

4709
03:02:19,750 --> 03:02:17,359
that comes from anywhere right

4710
03:02:21,269 --> 03:02:19,760
so if you want to go to a good place

4711
03:02:22,630 --> 03:02:21,279
there are some

4712
03:02:24,150 --> 03:02:22,640
attitudes

4713
03:02:26,230 --> 03:02:24,160
that are much more conducive to that

4714
03:02:29,110 --> 03:02:26,240
than other attitudes and i think

4715
03:02:31,990 --> 03:02:29,120
we've got some attitudes that

4716
03:02:34,309 --> 03:02:32,000
don't help and

4717
03:02:36,630 --> 03:02:34,319
you know personally

4718
03:02:38,309 --> 03:02:36,640
i see this at all levels of society so

4719
03:02:41,190 --> 03:02:38,319
like if you look at people who are the

4720
03:02:42,469 --> 03:02:41,200
experts in various things

4721
03:02:45,750 --> 03:02:42,479
or who

4722
03:02:47,670 --> 03:02:45,760
uh who are the societally um

4723
03:02:49,429 --> 03:02:47,680
designated experts like the people who

4724
03:02:50,870 --> 03:02:49,439
have the degrees

4725
03:02:52,710 --> 03:02:50,880
the people who have the positions in

4726
03:02:54,150 --> 03:02:52,720
government and whatever i don't think

4727
03:02:55,910 --> 03:02:54,160
most of those people are very good at

4728
03:02:58,150 --> 03:02:55,920
what they do there are occasional

4729
03:03:01,110 --> 03:02:58,160
outliers right but for the most part

4730
03:03:02,950 --> 03:03:01,120
it's just we set up a system of how do

4731
03:03:03,830 --> 03:03:02,960
you rise in the ranks of these various

4732
03:03:04,710 --> 03:03:03,840
things

4733
03:03:06,710 --> 03:03:04,720
um

4734
03:03:08,710 --> 03:03:06,720
those systems were founded

4735
03:03:10,630 --> 03:03:08,720
originally

4736
03:03:13,429 --> 03:03:10,640
in ways that were functional

4737
03:03:16,309 --> 03:03:13,439
you know like like originally having a

4738
03:03:17,910 --> 03:03:16,319
phd was a really big deal right

4739
03:03:20,630 --> 03:03:17,920
now it's

4740
03:03:22,469 --> 03:03:20,640
well and when we set up that system

4741
03:03:23,830 --> 03:03:22,479
it was a system to help with that kind

4742
03:03:27,590 --> 03:03:23,840
of learning and discovery of new

4743
03:03:29,910 --> 03:03:27,600
knowledge now getting a phd is basically

4744
03:03:30,790 --> 03:03:29,920
filling out a tax form

4745
03:03:32,710 --> 03:03:30,800
but

4746
03:03:34,950 --> 03:03:32,720
it takes four or five years

4747
03:03:36,630 --> 03:03:34,960
not for everybody some people do phds

4748
03:03:38,070 --> 03:03:36,640
that are actually

4749
03:03:40,550 --> 03:03:38,080
closer to the spirit of what the

4750
03:03:42,389 --> 03:03:40,560
original thing was but we've kind of

4751
03:03:43,670 --> 03:03:42,399
slowly over time replaced the original

4752
03:03:45,750 --> 03:03:43,680
thing with this other thing that is

4753
03:03:46,870 --> 03:03:45,760
actually quite different right

4754
03:03:51,910 --> 03:03:46,880
and

4755
03:03:55,110 --> 03:03:51,920
um

4756
03:03:58,790 --> 03:03:57,510
there are consequences to that i think

4757
03:04:00,950 --> 03:03:58,800
and

4758
03:04:03,990 --> 03:04:00,960
that's all i mean we're getting into

4759
03:04:08,710 --> 03:04:04,000
like personal rants at this point

4760
03:04:12,150 --> 03:04:10,389
that's but that's that's how i feel

4761
03:04:14,309 --> 03:04:12,160
about it

4762
03:04:17,030 --> 03:04:14,319
mr k wants to know what the f is going

4763
03:04:19,349 --> 03:04:17,040
on what the f is kojima working on i

4764
03:04:21,269 --> 03:04:19,359
have no idea i live in the us he lives

4765
03:04:23,030 --> 03:04:21,279
in does he still live in japan or did he

4766
03:04:25,510 --> 03:04:23,040
move i don't think so i think he's in

4767
03:04:27,429 --> 03:04:25,520
america now okay well that shows you how

4768
03:04:28,790 --> 03:04:27,439
much i know kojima production on there

4769
03:04:30,550 --> 03:04:28,800
yeah

4770
03:04:32,150 --> 03:04:30,560
xenoevil says i suppose the main

4771
03:04:34,070 --> 03:04:32,160
question i have is why he thinks the

4772
03:04:36,070 --> 03:04:34,080
success of braid didn't lead to more

4773
03:04:37,269 --> 03:04:36,080
copycat games it's still pretty much one

4774
03:04:39,190 --> 03:04:37,279
of a kind

4775
03:04:41,910 --> 03:04:39,200
okay actually

4776
03:04:45,349 --> 03:04:41,920
there sort of were copycat games

4777
03:04:47,429 --> 03:04:45,359
but in a different way and

4778
03:04:49,190 --> 03:04:47,439
because the motivation was different

4779
03:04:50,550 --> 03:04:49,200
right so

4780
03:04:52,630 --> 03:04:50,560
as we discussed

4781
03:04:54,070 --> 03:04:52,640
when doing braid

4782
03:04:57,030 --> 03:04:54,080
part of the motivation was an

4783
03:05:00,309 --> 03:04:57,040
exploration of the universe in like how

4784
03:05:04,070 --> 03:05:01,990
make a little mini universe that has

4785
03:05:06,710 --> 03:05:04,080
these fascinating aspects that in some

4786
03:05:09,670 --> 03:05:06,720
way reflects the big universe back at us

4787
03:05:11,830 --> 03:05:09,680
in an interesting way right

4788
03:05:13,750 --> 03:05:11,840
what the game is taken to be by a lot of

4789
03:05:15,590 --> 03:05:13,760
people who play it

4790
03:05:17,750 --> 03:05:15,600
as well as many people who would want to

4791
03:05:19,910 --> 03:05:17,760
copy it is like well it's a fun

4792
03:05:22,950 --> 03:05:19,920
platformer game and it's got some trippy

4793
03:05:25,269 --> 03:05:22,960
time stuff which is true actually right

4794
03:05:27,030 --> 03:05:25,279
but the goal wasn't exactly to do trippy

4795
03:05:28,309 --> 03:05:27,040
time stuff you know

4796
03:05:30,230 --> 03:05:28,319
um

4797
03:05:32,150 --> 03:05:30,240
if you start to make a game and your

4798
03:05:33,590 --> 03:05:32,160
goal is to do trippy time stuff which

4799
03:05:35,349 --> 03:05:33,600
you might do if you were going to make a

4800
03:05:37,030 --> 03:05:35,359
copycat game there's a lot easier ways

4801
03:05:38,790 --> 03:05:37,040
to do it because it's actually pretty

4802
03:05:41,030 --> 03:05:38,800
hard to program the system that has all

4803
03:05:42,790 --> 03:05:41,040
these different time behaviors that all

4804
03:05:45,349 --> 03:05:42,800
mesh in the same

4805
03:05:47,590 --> 03:05:45,359
simulator it's much easier to like make

4806
03:05:49,269 --> 03:05:47,600
a game where the fiction is about time

4807
03:05:50,870 --> 03:05:49,279
travel because anybody can write a story

4808
03:05:52,790 --> 03:05:50,880
about time travel right

4809
03:05:54,870 --> 03:05:52,800
and then um

4810
03:05:56,389 --> 03:05:54,880
maybe we'll have some animated scenes

4811
03:05:58,950 --> 03:05:56,399
that you can make the animation go

4812
03:06:01,030 --> 03:05:58,960
backwards and it looks cool like

4813
03:06:02,950 --> 03:06:01,040
there's a castle that's destroyed and

4814
03:06:04,950 --> 03:06:02,960
you press rewind and it undestroys

4815
03:06:06,309 --> 03:06:04,960
itself and that looks cool right there

4816
03:06:08,070 --> 03:06:06,319
are definitely a number of games who

4817
03:06:09,349 --> 03:06:08,080
have done stuff like that

4818
03:06:12,550 --> 03:06:09,359
um

4819
03:06:17,030 --> 03:06:12,560
and those things are just a lot easier

4820
03:06:19,990 --> 03:06:18,710
there's no need to do the hard thing if

4821
03:06:22,230 --> 03:06:20,000
you're just trying to make money or

4822
03:06:23,429 --> 03:06:22,240
whatever would be your reason or even if

4823
03:06:25,269 --> 03:06:23,439
you're just trying to do something that

4824
03:06:30,469 --> 03:06:25,279
looks cool

4825
03:06:30,479 --> 03:06:33,190
uh

4826
03:06:38,389 --> 03:06:35,830
yeah there i i'm not aware of any game

4827
03:06:39,990 --> 03:06:38,399
that is a copycat of braid in the deep

4828
03:06:43,510 --> 03:06:40,000
sense and i think it's just because

4829
03:06:45,990 --> 03:06:43,520
there's easier things to do

4830
03:06:47,990 --> 03:06:46,000
okay this person wes lord wants to know

4831
03:06:49,750 --> 03:06:48,000
it i'd love to hear more about john's

4832
03:06:51,750 --> 03:06:49,760
past struggles and with burnout and

4833
03:06:53,590 --> 03:06:51,760
motivation and his approach to getting

4834
03:06:55,269 --> 03:06:53,600
work done how his approach to getting

4835
03:06:57,190 --> 03:06:55,279
work done has changed

4836
03:06:59,190 --> 03:06:57,200
i mean i have a whole speech about that

4837
03:07:02,309 --> 03:06:59,200
that i can link you to as well all right

4838
03:07:04,070 --> 03:07:02,319
please do okay

4839
03:07:05,269 --> 03:07:04,080
um

4840
03:07:06,790 --> 03:07:05,279
you know in terms of individual

4841
03:07:08,950 --> 03:07:06,800
motivation i'll say one other thing

4842
03:07:10,469 --> 03:07:08,960
which is

4843
03:07:11,990 --> 03:07:10,479
i mean obviously this was a very short

4844
03:07:13,429 --> 03:07:12,000
question and i don't know the

4845
03:07:15,910 --> 03:07:13,439
questioner's background and all these

4846
03:07:18,710 --> 03:07:15,920
things but a lot of the time i get a lot

4847
03:07:22,150 --> 03:07:18,720
of questions these days by like

4848
03:07:23,990 --> 03:07:22,160
people who are asking how how do you do

4849
03:07:25,590 --> 03:07:24,000
a lot of work or how do you get started

4850
03:07:28,230 --> 03:07:25,600
and all that and

4851
03:07:30,870 --> 03:07:28,240
very often these questions

4852
03:07:32,550 --> 03:07:30,880
are themselves a procrastination

4853
03:07:34,790 --> 03:07:32,560
right it's like

4854
03:07:35,910 --> 03:07:34,800
obviously i'm in the state where i can't

4855
03:07:38,150 --> 03:07:35,920
do

4856
03:07:41,030 --> 03:07:38,160
a lot of work right now so i need

4857
03:07:42,070 --> 03:07:41,040
somebody to give me the answer before i

4858
03:07:45,510 --> 03:07:42,080
can

4859
03:07:47,110 --> 03:07:45,520
and actually the secret is you sit down

4860
03:07:49,190 --> 03:07:47,120
and decide to do it

4861
03:07:51,110 --> 03:07:49,200
that's all it is right

4862
03:07:52,870 --> 03:07:51,120
um

4863
03:07:55,510 --> 03:07:52,880
seinfeld is like that that's his famous

4864
03:07:56,710 --> 03:07:55,520
advice to comics to comedians um yeah

4865
03:07:58,790 --> 03:07:56,720
comedians always want to know what's the

4866
03:08:00,150 --> 03:07:58,800
secret he says just work stop talking

4867
03:08:02,469 --> 03:08:00,160
about it yeah

4868
03:08:05,190 --> 03:08:02,479
because that's it's like oh

4869
03:08:07,510 --> 03:08:05,200
someday i have permission to not

4870
03:08:10,469 --> 03:08:07,520
actually do this work until someday

4871
03:08:12,710 --> 03:08:10,479
somebody bestows upon me the magical

4872
03:08:15,190 --> 03:08:12,720
you know i don't know baton from olympic

4873
03:08:17,590 --> 03:08:15,200
baton right it's that's not how it is

4874
03:08:19,510 --> 03:08:17,600
it's like you make a baton and run with

4875
03:08:22,790 --> 03:08:19,520
it that's that's actually how it is and

4876
03:08:26,070 --> 03:08:23,590
now

4877
03:08:28,070 --> 03:08:26,080
it might be that

4878
03:08:29,429 --> 03:08:28,080
people

4879
03:08:31,030 --> 03:08:29,439
don't want to work that much on

4880
03:08:32,469 --> 03:08:31,040
something maybe they don't actually

4881
03:08:34,870 --> 03:08:32,479
think it's as important as they would

4882
03:08:37,030 --> 03:08:34,880
like to think it is right like what you

4883
03:08:38,870 --> 03:08:37,040
intellectually think should be important

4884
03:08:40,870 --> 03:08:38,880
versus how you actually respond to

4885
03:08:44,469 --> 03:08:40,880
things is very different and you might

4886
03:08:45,990 --> 03:08:44,479
have a a mismatch there um

4887
03:08:47,510 --> 03:08:46,000
maybe you there's nothing that's

4888
03:08:50,630 --> 03:08:47,520
important enough to you yet maybe you

4889
03:08:52,710 --> 03:08:50,640
haven't discovered that and so

4890
03:08:53,990 --> 03:08:52,720
maybe you go to the gym and work out for

4891
03:08:56,230 --> 03:08:54,000
a while right

4892
03:08:58,070 --> 03:08:56,240
um

4893
03:09:01,750 --> 03:08:58,080
yeah that's probably enough on that

4894
03:09:04,469 --> 03:09:01,760
topic bc one and zero many people have

4895
03:09:08,469 --> 03:09:04,479
said some similar sentiments please beta

4896
03:09:09,830 --> 03:09:08,479
access to jai i will pay 100 for access

4897
03:09:13,269 --> 03:09:09,840
we're you know we're working on rolling

4898
03:09:15,190 --> 03:09:13,279
it out wider it's been um

4899
03:09:17,349 --> 03:09:15,200
so one of my goals

4900
03:09:19,590 --> 03:09:17,359
in doing this language has been to solve

4901
03:09:20,950 --> 03:09:19,600
problems that

4902
03:09:22,550 --> 03:09:20,960
are happening with the way things are

4903
03:09:24,550 --> 03:09:22,560
currently done and one of those problems

4904
03:09:26,469 --> 03:09:24,560
is we have all this messy software that

4905
03:09:28,550 --> 03:09:26,479
doesn't really work and why do we have

4906
03:09:30,070 --> 03:09:28,560
that well people make stuff and they

4907
03:09:31,190 --> 03:09:30,080
don't work that hard on it and then they

4908
03:09:33,110 --> 03:09:31,200
give it out

4909
03:09:35,429 --> 03:09:33,120
and then they let for people

4910
03:09:37,269 --> 03:09:35,439
who are using it to run into problems

4911
03:09:39,670 --> 03:09:37,279
and then report the problems and like

4912
03:09:42,710 --> 03:09:41,030
meanwhile you have all these people

4913
03:09:46,309 --> 03:09:42,720
experiencing a lot of problems or

4914
03:09:48,070 --> 03:09:46,319
slowness or unreliability right and if

4915
03:09:51,750 --> 03:09:48,080
you

4916
03:09:53,510 --> 03:09:51,760
successful add up all the time that

4917
03:09:54,469 --> 03:09:53,520
those people spent experiencing those

4918
03:09:57,429 --> 03:09:54,479
problems

4919
03:10:00,309 --> 03:09:57,439
it's quite large right even if imagine

4920
03:10:02,150 --> 03:10:00,319
only a hundred people used your thing

4921
03:10:04,150 --> 03:10:02,160
and you cost them each an hour that's a

4922
03:10:06,790 --> 03:10:04,160
hundred hours right that's three and a

4923
03:10:08,710 --> 03:10:06,800
half weeks or no two and a half weeks of

4924
03:10:10,229 --> 03:10:08,720
full-time work so if you could have

4925
03:10:12,550 --> 03:10:10,239
fixed this problem

4926
03:10:14,309 --> 03:10:12,560
in let's say it would have taken you two

4927
03:10:16,550 --> 03:10:14,319
very hard days of work to fix this

4928
03:10:18,309 --> 03:10:16,560
problem that cost these people an hour

4929
03:10:20,950 --> 03:10:18,319
um

4930
03:10:23,750 --> 03:10:20,960
the the net benefit to everybody is

4931
03:10:24,630 --> 03:10:23,760
still a couple weeks right

4932
03:10:26,790 --> 03:10:24,640
now

4933
03:10:28,870 --> 03:10:26,800
100 users is a very

4934
03:10:30,870 --> 03:10:28,880
uh unsuccessful piece of software

4935
03:10:33,349 --> 03:10:30,880
actually right okay once you get to the

4936
03:10:35,429 --> 03:10:33,359
tens of thousands or millions

4937
03:10:36,870 --> 03:10:35,439
these factors are just insane how big

4938
03:10:37,910 --> 03:10:36,880
they are right and so what i'm trying to

4939
03:10:40,389 --> 03:10:37,920
do is

4940
03:10:42,309 --> 03:10:40,399
not create pollution of that kind

4941
03:10:44,630 --> 03:10:42,319
right i'm trying to not have negative

4942
03:10:46,469 --> 03:10:44,640
externalities so

4943
03:10:48,070 --> 03:10:46,479
we're starting with a small group we're

4944
03:10:49,910 --> 03:10:48,080
refining the language we're making it

4945
03:10:51,269 --> 03:10:49,920
better and we're slowly growing the

4946
03:10:53,670 --> 03:10:51,279
number of people right now there's about

4947
03:10:54,469 --> 03:10:53,680
100 people

4948
03:10:56,710 --> 03:10:54,479
and

4949
03:10:58,389 --> 03:10:56,720
i do want to start looking at widening

4950
03:11:00,710 --> 03:10:58,399
that soon

4951
03:11:02,389 --> 03:11:00,720
in some way that lets people

4952
03:11:04,389 --> 03:11:02,399
opt in

4953
03:11:07,590 --> 03:11:04,399
but i don't exactly you know we haven't

4954
03:11:11,590 --> 03:11:09,510
michael baz paulov says thoughts on

4955
03:11:13,590 --> 03:11:11,600
supergiant's success with haiti's early

4956
03:11:15,670 --> 03:11:13,600
access model do you think this model

4957
03:11:17,429 --> 03:11:15,680
will be more prevalent in the industry

4958
03:11:19,030 --> 03:11:17,439
seems like it minimizes risk and

4959
03:11:20,950 --> 03:11:19,040
provides valuable feedback in early

4960
03:11:23,429 --> 03:11:20,960
stages but doesn't hurt the artistic

4961
03:11:24,710 --> 03:11:23,439
vision

4962
03:11:26,550 --> 03:11:24,720
i mean i think it's great that their

4963
03:11:28,710 --> 03:11:26,560
game was so successful

4964
03:11:29,910 --> 03:11:28,720
i don't care that much about business

4965
03:11:31,830 --> 03:11:29,920
models

4966
03:11:33,830 --> 03:11:31,840
in the sense that if i spend most of my

4967
03:11:36,309 --> 03:11:33,840
time like spending a lot of time

4968
03:11:38,790 --> 03:11:36,319
thinking about business models is what

4969
03:11:40,710 --> 03:11:38,800
most game companies do

4970
03:11:43,429 --> 03:11:40,720
and if i want to be different from that

4971
03:11:47,190 --> 03:11:43,439
i probably shouldn't do that right um

4972
03:11:49,269 --> 03:11:47,200
also my idea of

4973
03:11:51,110 --> 03:11:49,279
an artistic process is probably very

4974
03:11:52,950 --> 03:11:51,120
different from theirs and

4975
03:11:56,229 --> 03:11:52,960
i just don't really do feedback that

4976
03:11:57,510 --> 03:11:56,239
much honestly like i use feedback as

4977
03:11:59,830 --> 03:11:57,520
um

4978
03:12:01,429 --> 03:11:59,840
as a reality check right so like we

4979
03:12:04,229 --> 03:12:01,439
might go play test a game somewhere and

4980
03:12:05,429 --> 03:12:04,239
we see does the game work

4981
03:12:09,590 --> 03:12:05,439
does

4982
03:12:14,150 --> 03:12:11,429
like if there are things that we thought

4983
03:12:16,630 --> 03:12:14,160
were going to be good did people

4984
03:12:21,030 --> 03:12:18,630
get some kind of reasonable response

4985
03:12:23,510 --> 03:12:21,040
from them you know but what we don't do

4986
03:12:25,510 --> 03:12:23,520
is what play testing typically is which

4987
03:12:27,190 --> 03:12:25,520
is

4988
03:12:28,790 --> 03:12:27,200
have people answer some questions about

4989
03:12:29,990 --> 03:12:28,800
what they like the most and put more of

4990
03:12:31,510 --> 03:12:30,000
that in and

4991
03:12:34,070 --> 03:12:31,520
what didn't they like and then change

4992
03:12:36,790 --> 03:12:34,080
those things or cut them out i mean even

4993
03:12:38,469 --> 03:12:36,800
if a lot of people don't like something

4994
03:12:40,309 --> 03:12:38,479
in one of my games if it's the right

4995
03:12:43,349 --> 03:12:40,319
thing for that game it's in the game you

4996
03:12:45,190 --> 03:12:43,359
know it's a very different thing so

4997
03:12:48,070 --> 03:12:45,200
um but that's just a different way of

4998
03:12:50,550 --> 03:12:48,080
development than what supergiant does um

4999
03:12:52,070 --> 03:12:50,560
that's fine that's why you want

5000
03:12:53,349 --> 03:12:52,080
a lot of different developers in the

5001
03:12:54,710 --> 03:12:53,359
world is because they can do different

5002
03:12:57,750 --> 03:12:54,720
things different ways and there's

5003
03:13:00,070 --> 03:12:57,760
variety so

5004
03:13:01,910 --> 03:13:00,080
early access also i think it's better

5005
03:13:05,429 --> 03:13:01,920
for some kinds of games than others

5006
03:13:07,750 --> 03:13:05,439
right a game with a lot of replayability

5007
03:13:08,950 --> 03:13:07,760
like something like hades early access

5008
03:13:10,950 --> 03:13:08,960
makes sense because when you play the

5009
03:13:12,870 --> 03:13:10,960
better version later you're like oh cool

5010
03:13:14,790 --> 03:13:12,880
right i'm playing the better if you do a

5011
03:13:16,550 --> 03:13:14,800
puzzle a single player puzzle game like

5012
03:13:18,309 --> 03:13:16,560
the last couple that we've done

5013
03:13:19,750 --> 03:13:18,319
if you play the bad version initially

5014
03:13:21,590 --> 03:13:19,760
you can't replay it later because you

5015
03:13:22,309 --> 03:13:21,600
know how everything goes

5016
03:13:25,190 --> 03:13:22,319
so

5017
03:13:27,429 --> 03:13:25,200
you just played the bad version right

5018
03:13:29,110 --> 03:13:27,439
and then so you're giving your most

5019
03:13:31,269 --> 03:13:29,120
enthusiastic people

5020
03:13:33,750 --> 03:13:31,279
the bad version of the game and it's

5021
03:13:35,830 --> 03:13:33,760
just not good for that kind of a thing

5022
03:13:37,990 --> 03:13:35,840
if i think how does the side question

5023
03:13:39,670 --> 03:13:38,000
just for me how does play testing work

5024
03:13:40,790 --> 03:13:39,680
do you get your family and friends to do

5025
03:13:42,469 --> 03:13:40,800
it

5026
03:13:44,469 --> 03:13:42,479
is there a company that play tests and

5027
03:13:47,110 --> 03:13:44,479
you just put your game there how is it

5028
03:13:48,870 --> 03:13:47,120
that people don't break the ndas

5029
03:13:51,750 --> 03:13:48,880
because ndas are broken all the time but

5030
03:13:53,429 --> 03:13:51,760
oh yeah i rarely hear but i'm i don't

5031
03:13:54,710 --> 03:13:53,439
follow game rumors but i rarely hear

5032
03:13:56,309 --> 03:13:54,720
about what's happening grand theft auto

5033
03:13:57,910 --> 03:13:56,319
6 for example or some other major

5034
03:13:59,830 --> 03:13:57,920
relationships how does that work we

5035
03:14:01,990 --> 03:13:59,840
don't play tests that much like way less

5036
03:14:03,349 --> 03:14:02,000
than most development studios we will

5037
03:14:04,870 --> 03:14:03,359
play test

5038
03:14:06,790 --> 03:14:04,880
this next game probably more than

5039
03:14:08,950 --> 03:14:06,800
previous games but that's because it's

5040
03:14:14,710 --> 03:14:08,960
so big and like we just need to do that

5041
03:14:19,190 --> 03:14:16,469
the way that we have play tested in the

5042
03:14:20,710 --> 03:14:19,200
past was sort of in the beginning you

5043
03:14:21,990 --> 03:14:20,720
just have a small number of people that

5044
03:14:23,670 --> 03:14:22,000
you know

5045
03:14:25,670 --> 03:14:23,680
like friends who are maybe other game

5046
03:14:26,790 --> 03:14:25,680
developers or something play it just

5047
03:14:28,710 --> 03:14:26,800
because

5048
03:14:31,110 --> 03:14:28,720
you just want to see

5049
03:14:32,790 --> 03:14:31,120
how it works just just in the beginning

5050
03:14:34,790 --> 03:14:32,800
right it's not refined it doesn't have

5051
03:14:36,950 --> 03:14:34,800
all the polish like it probably doesn't

5052
03:14:39,670 --> 03:14:36,960
even have good art visual art for most

5053
03:14:41,670 --> 03:14:39,680
of it so

5054
03:14:43,590 --> 03:14:41,680
you don't even expect

5055
03:14:45,190 --> 03:14:43,600
like even if your design is correct and

5056
03:14:47,269 --> 03:14:45,200
all that and even if the parameters are

5057
03:14:48,630 --> 03:14:47,279
all tuned you wouldn't expect the same

5058
03:14:50,790 --> 03:14:48,640
final response that you would get from

5059
03:14:52,550 --> 03:14:50,800
the finished game because it doesn't

5060
03:14:53,750 --> 03:14:52,560
look good it doesn't feel good and all

5061
03:14:55,429 --> 03:14:53,760
these things right so you're looking for

5062
03:14:57,670 --> 03:14:55,439
a different thing early on

5063
03:14:58,870 --> 03:14:57,680
um

5064
03:15:00,950 --> 03:14:58,880
later

5065
03:15:03,429 --> 03:15:00,960
it's more about testing the final thing

5066
03:15:05,110 --> 03:15:03,439
to make sure if it's polished and

5067
03:15:06,870 --> 03:15:05,120
make sure weird things don't happen when

5068
03:15:07,910 --> 03:15:06,880
people go into some corner that you

5069
03:15:10,389 --> 03:15:07,920
never

5070
03:15:11,750 --> 03:15:10,399
walked into that way and whatever now

5071
03:15:12,550 --> 03:15:11,760
for that kind of thing there are also

5072
03:15:15,910 --> 03:15:12,560
like

5073
03:15:17,830 --> 03:15:15,920
qa right quality assurance houses which

5074
03:15:18,710 --> 03:15:17,840
is kind of like play testing

5075
03:15:20,790 --> 03:15:18,720
but

5076
03:15:22,389 --> 03:15:20,800
it's different like play testing is like

5077
03:15:24,550 --> 03:15:22,399
hey you play it kind of the way a player

5078
03:15:26,389 --> 03:15:24,560
would qa is like

5079
03:15:28,870 --> 03:15:26,399
it's their job to just try and break the

5080
03:15:30,389 --> 03:15:28,880
game all day for weeks or months right

5081
03:15:31,349 --> 03:15:30,399
and that's a very useful service but

5082
03:15:34,630 --> 03:15:31,359
it's

5083
03:15:37,110 --> 03:15:34,640
testing but we do engage that in some

5084
03:15:38,630 --> 03:15:37,120
way on every game as well

5085
03:15:40,070 --> 03:15:38,640
ivan wants to know these are the last

5086
03:15:41,750 --> 03:15:40,080
three questions ivan wants to know if

5087
03:15:43,670 --> 03:15:41,760
political questions are allowed what are

5088
03:15:46,550 --> 03:15:43,680
his thoughts on the state of free speech

5089
03:15:48,229 --> 03:15:46,560
in the world now thanks

5090
03:15:50,070 --> 03:15:48,239
i'm trying to get away from political

5091
03:15:52,870 --> 03:15:50,080
questions there are definitely political

5092
03:15:54,870 --> 03:15:52,880
issues that could rile me up um

5093
03:15:57,830 --> 03:15:54,880
and i do think

5094
03:15:58,870 --> 03:15:57,840
i will say very briefly that i do think

5095
03:16:01,190 --> 03:15:58,880
uh

5096
03:16:06,630 --> 03:16:01,200
the loss of free speech is kind of a

5097
03:16:11,990 --> 03:16:08,790
in the days that we are living in right

5098
03:16:12,950 --> 03:16:12,000
now um having political opinions is very

5099
03:16:14,790 --> 03:16:12,960
easy

5100
03:16:16,630 --> 03:16:14,800
everybody has one

5101
03:16:18,389 --> 03:16:16,640
being loud about them now is very easy

5102
03:16:20,229 --> 03:16:18,399
now that we have all this social media

5103
03:16:21,670 --> 03:16:20,239
so like i'm not sure that i'm adding

5104
03:16:22,870 --> 03:16:21,680
very much

5105
03:16:25,269 --> 03:16:22,880
um

5106
03:16:27,349 --> 03:16:25,279
by having opinions i will say there is

5107
03:16:29,990 --> 03:16:27,359
some value to being

5108
03:16:33,429 --> 03:16:30,000
a little a contrarian haven like if you

5109
03:16:34,950 --> 03:16:33,439
believe something that's different than

5110
03:16:37,190 --> 03:16:34,960
the what's being broadcast from

5111
03:16:39,910 --> 03:16:37,200
mainstream news media or something then

5112
03:16:41,750 --> 03:16:39,920
you can serve as a little pocket of like

5113
03:16:44,710 --> 03:16:41,760
hey there's at least some people who

5114
03:16:47,030 --> 03:16:44,720
don't believe this and

5115
03:16:49,110 --> 03:16:47,040
you know maybe people can feel less

5116
03:16:50,710 --> 03:16:49,120
crazy if they're hanging out but the

5117
03:16:53,349 --> 03:16:50,720
thing is that

5118
03:16:55,110 --> 03:16:53,359
again like the political rhetoric

5119
03:16:57,190 --> 03:16:55,120
is almost completely disingenuous

5120
03:16:59,750 --> 03:16:57,200
because people will pretend that they're

5121
03:17:01,990 --> 03:16:59,760
standing by big principles when they say

5122
03:17:04,309 --> 03:17:02,000
all these things but then they're not

5123
03:17:06,389 --> 03:17:04,319
really right they just want whatever the

5124
03:17:08,550 --> 03:17:06,399
ends are that

5125
03:17:10,309 --> 03:17:08,560
you know and

5126
03:17:12,710 --> 03:17:10,319
and so arguing

5127
03:17:15,110 --> 03:17:12,720
about principles almost is beside the

5128
03:17:17,750 --> 03:17:15,120
point right because most people are

5129
03:17:19,830 --> 03:17:17,760
faking right like free speech was made

5130
03:17:22,469 --> 03:17:19,840
to be this big principle in the 60s and

5131
03:17:23,990 --> 03:17:22,479
70s even in the 80s right

5132
03:17:25,670 --> 03:17:24,000
when i was growing up

5133
03:17:27,429 --> 03:17:25,680
um

5134
03:17:30,070 --> 03:17:27,439
but like

5135
03:17:32,469 --> 03:17:30,080
for some reason now all the people in

5136
03:17:34,309 --> 03:17:32,479
some particular political area that used

5137
03:17:36,630 --> 03:17:34,319
to be very in favor of

5138
03:17:38,070 --> 03:17:36,640
free speech is now very anti-free speech

5139
03:17:40,469 --> 03:17:38,080
when a lot of the other underlying

5140
03:17:42,950 --> 03:17:40,479
values supposedly didn't change and it's

5141
03:17:44,229 --> 03:17:42,960
like oh wait that was never really a

5142
03:17:46,070 --> 03:17:44,239
principle

5143
03:17:47,750 --> 03:17:46,080
that was just a thing that was being

5144
03:17:50,389 --> 03:17:47,760
said well for some people it was a

5145
03:17:53,590 --> 03:17:50,399
principle okay but for other people it

5146
03:17:56,790 --> 03:17:53,600
was just a thing that was being said

5147
03:17:58,790 --> 03:17:56,800
an appeal to principles in order to

5148
03:18:02,150 --> 03:17:58,800
try to achieve some ends that they

5149
03:18:03,510 --> 03:18:02,160
desired right and so

5150
03:18:05,030 --> 03:18:03,520
i think that's the majority of what's

5151
03:18:06,229 --> 03:18:05,040
going on

5152
03:18:07,830 --> 03:18:06,239
i don't

5153
03:18:08,870 --> 03:18:07,840
want to participate in that i think

5154
03:18:10,950 --> 03:18:08,880
there's just

5155
03:18:12,710 --> 03:18:10,960
more important things to think about on

5156
03:18:14,309 --> 03:18:12,720
the other hand if we destroy our entire

5157
03:18:16,550 --> 03:18:14,319
society through fighting over these

5158
03:18:19,910 --> 03:18:16,560
things then

5159
03:18:22,790 --> 03:18:19,920
maybe that's bad too right um one thing

5160
03:18:25,349 --> 03:18:22,800
that i've definitely learned from

5161
03:18:29,750 --> 03:18:28,309
spiritually uh

5162
03:18:31,990 --> 03:18:29,760
helpful people

5163
03:18:34,630 --> 03:18:32,000
is that

5164
03:18:36,710 --> 03:18:34,640
you do give energy to something in ways

5165
03:18:38,790 --> 03:18:36,720
that you don't intend and i don't mean

5166
03:18:41,110 --> 03:18:38,800
energy in a woo new wave thing i just

5167
03:18:45,269 --> 03:18:42,950
like look if you if you disagree with

5168
03:18:47,510 --> 03:18:45,279
someone about something right

5169
03:18:48,950 --> 03:18:47,520
if you argue with them about it first of

5170
03:18:50,630 --> 03:18:48,960
all

5171
03:18:54,229 --> 03:18:50,640
they're going to argue back and solidify

5172
03:18:56,070 --> 03:18:54,239
their stance right so you're actually

5173
03:18:57,510 --> 03:18:56,080
whereas they might have just said no big

5174
03:18:59,349 --> 03:18:57,520
deal and and changed their mind two

5175
03:19:01,910 --> 03:18:59,359
weeks later so you're you're causing the

5176
03:19:03,269 --> 03:19:01,920
thing that you don't want to cause right

5177
03:19:05,190 --> 03:19:03,279
but secondly

5178
03:19:07,429 --> 03:19:05,200
you are becoming the thing that you

5179
03:19:08,790 --> 03:19:07,439
thought was not good by engaging in

5180
03:19:11,990 --> 03:19:08,800
these arguments

5181
03:19:14,150 --> 03:19:12,000
and so forth um

5182
03:19:15,830 --> 03:19:14,160
and spending time and energy on those

5183
03:19:17,429 --> 03:19:15,840
that are better served

5184
03:19:19,030 --> 03:19:17,439
in other directions whatever you think

5185
03:19:21,030 --> 03:19:19,040
those directions should be

5186
03:19:23,670 --> 03:19:21,040
now i will say i have spent occasional

5187
03:19:25,750 --> 03:19:23,680
times now and again arguing with people

5188
03:19:29,429 --> 03:19:25,760
on social media about these things

5189
03:19:31,110 --> 03:19:29,439
mostly before it became apparent how

5190
03:19:32,790 --> 03:19:31,120
widespread some of these beliefs were

5191
03:19:34,229 --> 03:19:32,800
going to be and how i wouldn't make a

5192
03:19:39,110 --> 03:19:34,239
difference by

5193
03:19:41,670 --> 03:19:40,870
like if you think ideas are still in

5194
03:19:43,349 --> 03:19:41,680
play

5195
03:19:46,070 --> 03:19:43,359
then there are reasons to try and

5196
03:19:48,389 --> 03:19:46,080
convince people right but if something

5197
03:19:49,990 --> 03:19:48,399
is just a wave that's gonna just

5198
03:19:51,990 --> 03:19:50,000
annihilate everything then it's like

5199
03:19:54,150 --> 03:19:52,000
well

5200
03:19:56,070 --> 03:19:54,160
maybe i should just save my energy and

5201
03:19:57,670 --> 03:19:56,080
and use it over here instead of over

5202
03:20:02,309 --> 03:19:57,680
there um

5203
03:20:04,070 --> 03:20:03,269
like

5204
03:20:07,349 --> 03:20:04,080
there

5205
03:20:09,030 --> 03:20:07,359
always utility to all these things so

5206
03:20:09,910 --> 03:20:09,040
like arguing with somebody about

5207
03:20:10,950 --> 03:20:09,920
something

5208
03:20:13,349 --> 03:20:10,960
um

5209
03:20:15,429 --> 03:20:13,359
seems useless but then

5210
03:20:16,790 --> 03:20:15,439
maybe someday you it's actually

5211
03:20:18,389 --> 03:20:16,800
important that you have these

5212
03:20:20,309 --> 03:20:18,399
argumentative skills or have thought

5213
03:20:22,229 --> 03:20:20,319
about these things because maybe

5214
03:20:23,429 --> 03:20:22,239
maybe you end up in an argument

5215
03:20:25,670 --> 03:20:23,439
where somebody's going to make a

5216
03:20:29,030 --> 03:20:25,680
decision based on something and that

5217
03:20:31,110 --> 03:20:29,040
decision matters in some way against

5218
03:20:33,910 --> 03:20:31,120
again we're on the human level and not

5219
03:20:36,389 --> 03:20:33,920
like the spiritual level here um

5220
03:20:40,790 --> 03:20:36,399
you know maybe that matters

5221
03:20:44,790 --> 03:20:42,630
if you didn't think about those things

5222
03:20:46,070 --> 03:20:44,800
or you didn't practice arguing with

5223
03:20:47,750 --> 03:20:46,080
somebody about them you're kind of not

5224
03:20:49,429 --> 03:20:47,760
prepared it's like not

5225
03:20:51,269 --> 03:20:49,439
training to fight or something like if

5226
03:20:52,550 --> 03:20:51,279
you if you're supposed to protect your

5227
03:20:54,229 --> 03:20:52,560
wife and kid

5228
03:20:55,110 --> 03:20:54,239
in a rough neighborhood that you live in

5229
03:20:57,269 --> 03:20:55,120
right

5230
03:20:59,590 --> 03:20:57,279
um if you never learned a fight and then

5231
03:21:01,349 --> 03:20:59,600
the day comes that you have to

5232
03:21:02,710 --> 03:21:01,359
maybe you were derelict in your duty a

5233
03:21:04,070 --> 03:21:02,720
little bit

5234
03:21:06,150 --> 03:21:04,080
um

5235
03:21:08,389 --> 03:21:06,160
that said though

5236
03:21:11,190 --> 03:21:08,399
it's not like people need excuses to

5237
03:21:13,590 --> 03:21:11,200
argue with each other right like our

5238
03:21:15,670 --> 03:21:13,600
egos want to argue with each other all

5239
03:21:16,469 --> 03:21:15,680
the time

5240
03:21:18,469 --> 03:21:16,479
so

5241
03:21:20,790 --> 03:21:18,479
one has to be very careful

5242
03:21:24,630 --> 03:21:20,800
coming up with excuses why that's okay

5243
03:21:27,510 --> 03:21:26,229
when you were talking about the problems

5244
03:21:30,950 --> 03:21:27,520
with our culture you also mentioned

5245
03:21:33,670 --> 03:21:30,960
stagnation and around since 1970 or so

5246
03:21:35,269 --> 03:21:33,680
um or mid-1970s peter thiel and eric

5247
03:21:37,590 --> 03:21:35,279
weinstein have thoughts on that i'm

5248
03:21:39,349 --> 03:21:37,600
curious if you've seen their thoughts or

5249
03:21:42,469 --> 03:21:39,359
heard their thoughts yeah i've seen a

5250
03:21:45,190 --> 03:21:42,479
bunch that both of those guys have said

5251
03:21:48,469 --> 03:21:45,200
i have a relatively contrarian view here

5252
03:21:51,510 --> 03:21:48,479
in that i agree with peter thiel but

5253
03:21:53,349 --> 03:21:51,520
about the general state of things but i

5254
03:21:54,870 --> 03:21:53,359
also think

5255
03:21:57,429 --> 03:21:54,880
that he's a little too charitable

5256
03:21:59,349 --> 03:21:57,439
because what he says is that the domain

5257
03:22:01,429 --> 03:21:59,359
of software is

5258
03:22:04,229 --> 03:22:01,439
most of the

5259
03:22:05,670 --> 03:22:04,239
advancement in recent decades

5260
03:22:07,429 --> 03:22:05,680
i actually don't think that's true i

5261
03:22:10,150 --> 03:22:07,439
think software stopped advancing around

5262
03:22:11,910 --> 03:22:10,160
1990 for the most part we've had small

5263
03:22:13,830 --> 03:22:11,920
things that happened but

5264
03:22:15,670 --> 03:22:13,840
um i think

5265
03:22:16,550 --> 03:22:15,680
this is an area where people are pretty

5266
03:22:18,710 --> 03:22:16,560
um

5267
03:22:20,070 --> 03:22:18,720
confused about if they don't

5268
03:22:21,030 --> 03:22:20,080
think about it all the time because they

5269
03:22:22,309 --> 03:22:21,040
look and they say what do you mean

5270
03:22:24,469 --> 03:22:22,319
there's all these web companies there's

5271
03:22:25,910 --> 03:22:24,479
all these websites they're ipo'ing

5272
03:22:27,750 --> 03:22:25,920
there's like billions of dollars and all

5273
03:22:30,150 --> 03:22:27,760
that but what's really happening there

5274
03:22:32,389 --> 03:22:30,160
is technologies that we figured out in

5275
03:22:34,469 --> 03:22:32,399
prior decades like integrated circuits

5276
03:22:38,150 --> 03:22:34,479
that go very fast made by companies like

5277
03:22:40,550 --> 03:22:38,160
intel amd whatever you know various chip

5278
03:22:42,469 --> 03:22:40,560
fabs and all this stuff

5279
03:22:44,070 --> 03:22:42,479
combined with like networking and

5280
03:22:46,389 --> 03:22:44,080
communications hardware and the material

5281
03:22:48,630 --> 03:22:46,399
science that went into that

5282
03:22:50,150 --> 03:22:48,640
have made this scenario where you can

5283
03:22:52,309 --> 03:22:50,160
have software

5284
03:22:54,150 --> 03:22:52,319
that a lot of people use and that's

5285
03:22:56,150 --> 03:22:54,160
network connected in a very easy way

5286
03:22:58,790 --> 03:22:56,160
right that's actually what created all

5287
03:23:01,349 --> 03:22:58,800
of this the actual software in most

5288
03:23:03,429 --> 03:23:01,359
cases is pretty dumb and pretty bad and

5289
03:23:05,990 --> 03:23:03,439
doesn't really have

5290
03:23:07,429 --> 03:23:06,000
new ideas because it doesn't have to

5291
03:23:08,710 --> 03:23:07,439
because

5292
03:23:10,070 --> 03:23:08,720
you know if you want to make a website

5293
03:23:13,349 --> 03:23:10,080
that makes a bunch of money it's not

5294
03:23:15,510 --> 03:23:13,359
like you have to have some new

5295
03:23:17,110 --> 03:23:15,520
technical software idea to make that

5296
03:23:19,830 --> 03:23:17,120
work you just need to make the website

5297
03:23:22,070 --> 03:23:19,840
and we've actually known the technology

5298
03:23:25,750 --> 03:23:22,080
that you need to work make the website

5299
03:23:28,710 --> 03:23:25,760
we've known since like 1965

5300
03:23:29,990 --> 03:23:28,720
none of that stuff is new um well let's

5301
03:23:32,710 --> 03:23:30,000
if we're talking about networking

5302
03:23:35,150 --> 03:23:32,720
specifically let's say 1975 to like give

5303
03:23:37,590 --> 03:23:35,160
it more time to percolate but like by

5304
03:23:40,150 --> 03:23:37,600
1975 you basically had everything that

5305
03:23:41,750 --> 03:23:40,160
you need to build a modern website it's

5306
03:23:44,550 --> 03:23:41,760
just we've made it a lot more

5307
03:23:46,469 --> 03:23:44,560
complicated than it needs to be and so

5308
03:23:50,389 --> 03:23:46,479
people think

5309
03:23:51,349 --> 03:23:50,399
sciencey than they actually are

5310
03:23:53,349 --> 03:23:51,359
and so

5311
03:23:54,710 --> 03:23:53,359
um when peters thiel says like one of

5312
03:23:56,630 --> 03:23:54,720
his big

5313
03:23:58,309 --> 03:23:56,640
catch phrases i don't want to you know

5314
03:24:00,630 --> 03:23:58,319
that's a little bit of a denigrating way

5315
03:24:02,070 --> 03:24:00,640
to say it but like he says you know

5316
03:24:03,910 --> 03:24:02,080
we've had very little progress in the

5317
03:24:05,670 --> 03:24:03,920
world of atoms and mostly in the world

5318
03:24:07,429 --> 03:24:05,680
of bits i don't think we've had very

5319
03:24:09,750 --> 03:24:07,439
much progress in the world of bits what

5320
03:24:13,190 --> 03:24:09,760
we've had is the use of the world of

5321
03:24:15,269 --> 03:24:13,200
bits to generate a lot of economic

5322
03:24:16,870 --> 03:24:15,279
windfall which is legitimate right

5323
03:24:19,349 --> 03:24:16,880
because we're replacing all sorts of

5324
03:24:21,190 --> 03:24:19,359
things that used to have large costs due

5325
03:24:23,030 --> 03:24:21,200
to requiring physical manufacturing and

5326
03:24:24,790 --> 03:24:23,040
all this stuff right and so

5327
03:24:26,229 --> 03:24:24,800
those costs go away so i think it makes

5328
03:24:29,349 --> 03:24:26,239
sense that companies make money by

5329
03:24:32,710 --> 03:24:30,710
but that's not

5330
03:24:34,870 --> 03:24:32,720
technological advancement

5331
03:24:37,190 --> 03:24:34,880
at all it's just figuring out how to

5332
03:24:39,590 --> 03:24:37,200
apply computers to

5333
03:24:40,630 --> 03:24:39,600
food delivery or whatever right

5334
03:24:43,190 --> 03:24:40,640
so

5335
03:24:45,030 --> 03:24:43,200
the other way that i say this is uh

5336
03:24:47,110 --> 03:24:45,040
like like everybody in silicon valley

5337
03:24:49,910 --> 03:24:47,120
says they work in tech right like oh i

5338
03:24:51,590 --> 03:24:49,920
work in tech um i don't think almost any

5339
03:24:54,309 --> 03:24:51,600
of these companies are tech companies so

5340
03:24:56,309 --> 03:24:54,319
for example uh

5341
03:24:58,229 --> 03:24:56,319
if you meet a truck driver and he's

5342
03:24:59,830 --> 03:24:58,239
driving at just a regular truck not even

5343
03:25:02,070 --> 03:24:59,840
a tesla electric truck or anything a

5344
03:25:03,830 --> 03:25:02,080
regular old diesel truck and he's

5345
03:25:07,030 --> 03:25:03,840
driving

5346
03:25:09,349 --> 03:25:07,040
across the interstate from you know

5347
03:25:11,910 --> 03:25:09,359
texas to california to deliver a bunch

5348
03:25:13,670 --> 03:25:11,920
of goods does he work in tech

5349
03:25:14,790 --> 03:25:13,680
and the answer is probably not

5350
03:25:17,670 --> 03:25:14,800
right

5351
03:25:19,910 --> 03:25:17,680
um but a truck actually

5352
03:25:22,070 --> 03:25:19,920
was amazing technology at some time that

5353
03:25:24,710 --> 03:25:22,080
was completely new and even a modern

5354
03:25:26,309 --> 03:25:24,720
truck is an iterated refined much better

5355
03:25:29,269 --> 03:25:26,319
truck than what we originally knew how

5356
03:25:32,229 --> 03:25:29,279
to make so he is driving this amazing

5357
03:25:34,950 --> 03:25:32,239
technological artifact right but like we

5358
03:25:37,750 --> 03:25:34,960
don't say he works in tech he works in

5359
03:25:39,990 --> 03:25:37,760
the application of a particular piece of

5360
03:25:42,630 --> 03:25:40,000
technology to

5361
03:25:44,150 --> 03:25:42,640
transport and that's not to say anything

5362
03:25:46,469 --> 03:25:44,160
you know negative about truck drivers

5363
03:25:48,469 --> 03:25:46,479
like those dudes if they all quit right

5364
03:25:49,910 --> 03:25:48,479
now we would be in a lot of trouble like

5365
03:25:51,110 --> 03:25:49,920
we should have a great deal of respect

5366
03:25:54,309 --> 03:25:51,120
for what they do

5367
03:25:58,389 --> 03:25:56,630
but like there's this pretend that goes

5368
03:26:00,150 --> 03:25:58,399
on that what's happening at all these

5369
03:26:02,070 --> 03:26:00,160
web companies is fundamentally different

5370
03:26:04,870 --> 03:26:02,080
from that but it's not

5371
03:26:08,309 --> 03:26:04,880
there it's basically driving trucks

5372
03:26:10,309 --> 03:26:08,319
uh from the database to the web client

5373
03:26:11,910 --> 03:26:10,319
right

5374
03:26:13,510 --> 03:26:11,920
um but they make it a lot harder than it

5375
03:26:15,910 --> 03:26:13,520
has to be so it seems like it's more

5376
03:26:19,190 --> 03:26:15,920
than that

5377
03:26:20,950 --> 03:26:19,200
last question man sure rari vk says if

5378
03:26:22,389 --> 03:26:20,960
it's not oh

5379
03:26:24,150 --> 03:26:22,399
i think there was a question about the

5380
03:26:26,950 --> 03:26:24,160
work process but i don't have the person

5381
03:26:28,870 --> 03:26:26,960
like is it scrum is it like lean startup

5382
03:26:31,030 --> 03:26:28,880
where you do mvp feedback iterate like

5383
03:26:33,349 --> 03:26:31,040
is there a title for what you use as

5384
03:26:34,229 --> 03:26:33,359
your work process with your team

5385
03:26:37,910 --> 03:26:34,239
um

5386
03:26:41,590 --> 03:26:39,590
we're not necessary we don't necessarily

5387
03:26:43,190 --> 03:26:41,600
have the optimal work process and that's

5388
03:26:44,550 --> 03:26:43,200
by design

5389
03:26:47,030 --> 03:26:44,560
because at what i was really worried

5390
03:26:48,469 --> 03:26:47,040
about working on the witness especially

5391
03:26:51,110 --> 03:26:48,479
because that's when the team started

5392
03:26:53,590 --> 03:26:51,120
becoming big

5393
03:26:55,349 --> 03:26:53,600
i was worried about killing the art

5394
03:26:57,349 --> 03:26:55,359
by making it too much of a business or

5395
03:26:59,030 --> 03:26:57,359
making it too much of a

5396
03:27:00,550 --> 03:26:59,040
of a process right

5397
03:27:02,630 --> 03:27:00,560
um that

5398
03:27:04,389 --> 03:27:02,640
outputs a product

5399
03:27:06,150 --> 03:27:04,399
um like sometimes you need time to

5400
03:27:08,469 --> 03:27:06,160
figure things out like how to make them

5401
03:27:10,070 --> 03:27:08,479
the best version that they could be

5402
03:27:12,229 --> 03:27:10,080
so there were many times on the witness

5403
03:27:13,670 --> 03:27:12,239
where it was like you know i don't think

5404
03:27:15,110 --> 03:27:13,680
people are doing that much work right

5405
03:27:16,790 --> 03:27:15,120
now

5406
03:27:18,630 --> 03:27:16,800
because i'm not

5407
03:27:21,110 --> 03:27:18,640
guiding them to the right

5408
03:27:22,550 --> 03:27:21,120
things that need to be done but i don't

5409
03:27:24,070 --> 03:27:22,560
know right now

5410
03:27:25,510 --> 03:27:24,080
so i need the time just to take the

5411
03:27:26,950 --> 03:27:25,520
break right

5412
03:27:28,630 --> 03:27:26,960
now that's bad as the team gets bigger

5413
03:27:29,750 --> 03:27:28,640
and bigger and it's more expensive

5414
03:27:31,590 --> 03:27:29,760
right

5415
03:27:33,349 --> 03:27:31,600
and i think we do some of that still

5416
03:27:34,309 --> 03:27:33,359
today but

5417
03:27:37,910 --> 03:27:34,319
um

5418
03:27:37,920 --> 03:27:41,030
but also

5419
03:27:45,110 --> 03:27:43,269
you know our model is very loose we have

5420
03:27:47,510 --> 03:27:45,120
occasional meetings once in a while

5421
03:27:49,349 --> 03:27:47,520
we're working still remotely because of

5422
03:27:50,950 --> 03:27:49,359
covid um

5423
03:27:52,870 --> 03:27:50,960
and but even before that we had some

5424
03:27:54,710 --> 03:27:52,880
remote people

5425
03:27:56,469 --> 03:27:54,720
we

5426
03:27:59,190 --> 03:27:56,479
have occasional meetings

5427
03:28:00,550 --> 03:27:59,200
um but then but not a lot

5428
03:28:01,750 --> 03:28:00,560
you know

5429
03:28:03,670 --> 03:28:01,760
and um

5430
03:28:06,309 --> 03:28:03,680
for the most part we trust

5431
03:28:08,309 --> 03:28:06,319
people we hire to be able to execute

5432
03:28:09,349 --> 03:28:08,319
some idea all the way down to the end

5433
03:28:11,110 --> 03:28:09,359
with only

5434
03:28:12,950 --> 03:28:11,120
maybe feedback from a couple teammates

5435
03:28:15,750 --> 03:28:12,960
or something about how it's going not

5436
03:28:17,110 --> 03:28:15,760
not for me or the whole company

5437
03:28:18,710 --> 03:28:17,120
we don't do like

5438
03:28:20,550 --> 03:28:18,720
any of these programming methodologies

5439
03:28:21,190 --> 03:28:20,560
like agile or scrum or i think those are

5440
03:28:29,910 --> 03:28:21,200
all

5441
03:28:31,670 --> 03:28:29,920
of thing right traps

5442
03:28:33,510 --> 03:28:31,680
not exactly traps because they're useful

5443
03:28:36,630 --> 03:28:33,520
in a certain way there's this broad

5444
03:28:38,630 --> 03:28:36,640
category of process um

5445
03:28:40,550 --> 03:28:38,640
that is helpful

5446
03:28:42,070 --> 03:28:40,560
to people who would otherwise be totally

5447
03:28:43,670 --> 03:28:42,080
unproductive whether they're new to

5448
03:28:45,910 --> 03:28:43,680
programming or

5449
03:28:48,150 --> 03:28:45,920
just find it very hard to focus or

5450
03:28:51,269 --> 03:28:48,160
whatever right you put in this certain

5451
03:28:53,990 --> 03:28:51,279
level of regularity and discipline and

5452
03:28:55,190 --> 03:28:54,000
expected results and all that

5453
03:28:56,469 --> 03:28:55,200
and

5454
03:28:58,550 --> 03:28:56,479
uh

5455
03:29:00,070 --> 03:28:58,560
you improve results for that those

5456
03:29:02,309 --> 03:29:00,080
people right

5457
03:29:04,070 --> 03:29:02,319
and and also maybe people i think who

5458
03:29:06,710 --> 03:29:04,080
this is just a job for them like they're

5459
03:29:08,070 --> 03:29:06,720
working on it to make money and to feed

5460
03:29:10,229 --> 03:29:08,080
their family or whatever nothing wrong

5461
03:29:11,910 --> 03:29:10,239
with that but they're not like

5462
03:29:13,670 --> 03:29:11,920
in it right

5463
03:29:15,990 --> 03:29:13,680
um

5464
03:29:17,830 --> 03:29:16,000
okay

5465
03:29:19,670 --> 03:29:17,840
however that acts for people who know

5466
03:29:21,910 --> 03:29:19,680
some math it acts kind of like a

5467
03:29:24,150 --> 03:29:21,920
bandpass filter where you filter out the

5468
03:29:26,229 --> 03:29:24,160
poor results but you also filter out the

5469
03:29:27,990 --> 03:29:26,239
amazing outlier results because like

5470
03:29:32,150 --> 03:29:28,000
sometimes you just need

5471
03:29:34,070 --> 03:29:32,160
a dude who's bad at certain things

5472
03:29:35,830 --> 03:29:34,080
to be on the team because he's good at

5473
03:29:37,110 --> 03:29:35,840
certain other he's amazing at certain

5474
03:29:37,990 --> 03:29:37,120
other things right

5475
03:29:40,630 --> 03:29:38,000
or

5476
03:29:41,990 --> 03:29:40,640
sometimes you need you know

5477
03:29:44,550 --> 03:29:42,000
people who

5478
03:29:45,670 --> 03:29:44,560
don't really show results on something

5479
03:29:47,269 --> 03:29:45,680
for a long time because they're

5480
03:29:49,190 --> 03:29:47,279
ruminating on it

5481
03:29:51,590 --> 03:29:49,200
and then eventually something good comes

5482
03:29:54,229 --> 03:29:51,600
out right and so

5483
03:29:55,429 --> 03:29:54,239
um if you forbid all those things from

5484
03:29:56,309 --> 03:29:55,439
happening

5485
03:29:58,469 --> 03:29:56,319
then

5486
03:30:01,030 --> 03:29:58,479
that's bad right because you're you're

5487
03:30:03,670 --> 03:30:01,040
selecting away those results so that's

5488
03:30:06,150 --> 03:30:03,680
why we don't do those

5489
03:30:08,630 --> 03:30:06,160
final question rory vk says if it's not

5490
03:30:10,950 --> 03:30:08,640
too late she submitted this last name

5491
03:30:14,950 --> 03:30:10,960
why is it called the witness

5492
03:30:17,510 --> 03:30:16,389
sorry

5493
03:30:20,389 --> 03:30:17,520
um

5494
03:30:28,150 --> 03:30:23,910
it was the name that was

5495
03:30:30,870 --> 03:30:28,160
the game

5496
03:30:32,950 --> 03:30:30,880
that i was able to come up with um

5497
03:30:35,110 --> 03:30:32,960
and the reasons for that are many and

5498
03:30:37,190 --> 03:30:35,120
they're intertwined and

5499
03:30:38,469 --> 03:30:37,200
they're things that i don't really

5500
03:30:39,990 --> 03:30:38,479
because like i said i don't want to be

5501
03:30:40,950 --> 03:30:40,000
in the business of saying what games are

5502
03:30:42,550 --> 03:30:40,960
about

5503
03:30:44,790 --> 03:30:42,560
they're

5504
03:30:47,190 --> 03:30:44,800
things like that and so

5505
03:30:52,309 --> 03:30:49,190
i think that's

5506
03:30:55,590 --> 03:30:52,319
all i can say on that

5507
03:30:57,190 --> 03:30:55,600
jonathan it's i'm

5508
03:31:01,269 --> 03:30:57,200
i'm

5509
03:31:03,510 --> 03:31:01,279
it was a good time i mean we went almost

5510
03:31:05,110 --> 03:31:03,520
five hours we started late or no we

5511
03:31:07,990 --> 03:31:05,120
didn't we didn't four three and a half

5512
03:31:10,309 --> 03:31:08,000
four yeah yeah that's that's plenty long

5513
03:31:11,990 --> 03:31:10,319
you know

5514
03:31:13,590 --> 03:31:12,000
thank you so much yeah thanks for

5515
03:31:14,790 --> 03:31:13,600
talking to me and i um

5516
03:31:17,510 --> 03:31:14,800
you know

5517
03:31:19,110 --> 03:31:17,520
have have a good time continuing to do

5518
03:31:24,070 --> 03:31:19,120
your

5519
03:31:25,990 --> 03:31:24,080
continues to go well

5520
03:31:27,750 --> 03:31:26,000
the podcast is now finished if you'd

5521
03:31:30,870 --> 03:31:27,760
like to support conversations like this

5522
03:31:34,950 --> 03:31:30,880
then do consider going to patreon.com

5523
03:31:37,590 --> 03:31:34,960
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5524
03:31:39,349 --> 03:31:37,600
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5525
03:31:41,190 --> 03:31:39,359
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